Sacred Scripture and Outside the Church There is NO Salvation

Catholic Family News ^ | June 2004 | Jacob Michael

[conservonator]

I doubt your interpration of Peter.

[asformeandformyhouse]

The Church was growing and thriving before the New Testament was ever codified, and it was the Catholic Church that codified it.

And to think all this time I thought the Holy Spirit gave us the scriptures! The letters had already been in circulation among the churches for some time. Regardless of what some of the 'DaVinci-coder types' might want us to believe, there was little argument over what was scriptural and what was not. True, some books may have been on the border (the book of Enoch for example), but those that were don't seem to me to add too much to the mix nor do they contradict what was already certain.

The Catholic Church is the Church of the apostles.

Upon this we must respectfully disagree.

[Quester]

I doubt your interpration of Peter.

Can you present a different interpretation of this passage of Peter's ?

(Note that I presented no interpretation - only Peter's own words)

[conservonator]

Is that the only definition? Did Christ establish a visible Church, and institution to preserve truth and guide the flock? Or did he establish a loose federation of "believers" that can't agree on anything, use different names to describe themselves, reject portions of scripture that give them problems and interpret other sections to fit their notions of what salvation, church, Christ, faith, works, etc mean.

[conservonator]

I don't see how this passage bolsters your position.

[asformeandformyhouse]

Please note I said "codified." I did not save "gave". I know we can agree on the Divine Source

Duly noted.

[conservonator]

Matthew 16:18-19

18 And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, 13 and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. 14 Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Christ's words.

[Quester]

I don't see how this passage bolsters your position.

What position ?

You asked for a definition of the church.

I gave you 'Peter's definition'.

[DAVEY CROCKETT]

True...
have done more to doom more people to hell than all the traditions of the pharisees of Jesus time--against which Christ railed so vehemently

traditions= works...
John 14:[5] Thomas said to him, "Lord, we do not know where you are going; how can we know the way?"
[6] Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me.
[7] If you had known me, you would have known my Father also; henceforth you know him and have seen him."

I believe sometimes when we try and take a verse or verses to prove a point we miss the obvious.

Religion is a man made institute. In the beginning GOD spoke directly to Adam followed along by Noah soon to be followed by Abraham on to Joseph and others till we come to Moses. Whom GOD also spoke directly to by prayer and worship. Not in a church with traditions. Now go along a little further and the Exodus and the people wanted to speak to GOD themselves and look what happened...
Exodus 20:[18] Now when all the people perceived the thunderings and the lightnings and the sound of the trumpet and the mountain smoking, the people were afraid and trembled; and they stood afar off,
[19] and said to Moses, "You speak to us, and we will hear; but let not God speak to us, lest we die."
[20] And Moses said to the people, "Do not fear; for God has come to prove you, and that the fear of him may be before your eyes, that you may not sin."
So this is the beginning of organized worship. (I wish GOD would talk to me this directly.) We get laws and offerings for sin. This worked for many many years.

Forward in time the people wanted a king for a ruler and on it goes. Which brings us to JESUS that said,[6] Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me. This verse says nothing about tradition or church. But all who believe this in there heart (which only GOD knows) will go to heaven.

Now as someone develops this relationship with GOD through JESUS they will want very badly to follow the New Testament as best they can. Which is a grand mixture of examples for daily life applications in a million different ways.

[Robert Drobot]

In this age of rampant ecumania (i.e. indifferentism), it's good to hear some Catholic Truth

Amen and Amen!!!

[conservonator]

Sorry, I confused you and Quix. Too many "Q"'s. So is that the one and only definition of Church then? Is that you point?

[redeemed_by_His_blood]

He didn't ordain the Roman church to be THE church, that is for sure.

[Quix]

I'm increasingly convinced God talks to all of us--at least Believers--directly.

Cultivating a capacity to discern, hear him over our own noise and satan's inpu is a process.

But HE SAID

HIS SHEEP KNEW HIS VOICE. Who am I or who are we to argue!

I agree with your statements about works and tradition etc.!

Great Doc. I hope you've posted it or will.

[William Terrell]

By elect, you mean the 12,000 from each of the tribes of Israel, which is the only Biblical definition of "elect" I know of?

[DAVEY CROCKETT]

I'm increasingly convinced God talks to all of us--at least Believers--directly.

Cultivating a capacity to discern, hear him over our own noise and satan's inpu is a process
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
TRUTH on both accounts. But wouldn't you like to see a burning bush?

[Quester]

Matthew 16:18 And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.

19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Christ's words.

And so it is.

Did not Paul teach that the church is built upon the foundation of the apostles (including Peter) and the prophets, of which the chief corner-stone is Jesus Christ, Himself ?

Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

[Quix]

Haven't spurned HIS CHURCH

AT ALL.

All who Love Him, Follow Him, Obey Him, have accepted His Blood as covering for their sins--THEY ARE PART OF HIS CHURCH including the Chinese in China with mere scraps of Scripture that they LIVE OUT as best as they can figure out how to do with Holy Spirit's help.

Since He created The Bible Code--we should have an interesting discussion about it!

In terms of man made churches, organizations, structures, doctines of man etc. I think the Roman group has gone quite beyond all the rest combined in depth, breadth, fossilization etc. of such.

BTW, the Council of Trent was, as I recall, the arrogance of the Roman Bishop deciding HE WAS IT. Sheesh.

Talk about a doctrine of man!

[Quix]

Paul seemed quite clearly to support

CHRIST'S STATEMENT:

LOVE GOD WHOLLY.
LOVE OTHERS AS YOURSELF.
DO UNTO OTHERS AS YOU'D HAVE THEM DO UNTO YOU.

Which word do you not understand?

[Quester]

Sorry, I confused you and Quix. Too many "Q"'s. So is that the one and only definition of Church then? Is that your point?

Well, it is 'Peter's definition'.

As such, I thought that it might carry some weight.