Posted on 05/20/2004 9:41:29 PM PDT by Ronzo
1) Paul, in his letters, is constantly stressing the need to live by the Holy Spirit. This is especially so in his letter to the Galatians. Living by the Spirit and being controlled by the Spirit is absolutely critical for living a righteous Christian life. The Holy Spirit is the power that enables us to live a godly life. (Ga 5:16-26)
2) Jesus, in the Last Supper discourse in the book of John, tells his disciples that it's a good thing he's leaving them! (To die, and be resurrected, then to ascend to heaven.) The reason it was to their advantage was so that the "helper" (Holy Spirit) would be sent to them. Jesus thought it better for the disciples to have the Holy Spirit with them, than for He, himself to stay. This is not just false humility on Jesus' part, he honestly believed that it was better for the disciples to have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit than for himself to continue leading and guiding them. If Jesus thinks the impartation Holy Spirit is that important for believers, then be assured that it should be a priority for us to know and understand the Holy Spirit and his ministry. (Jn 16:5-16)
3) Neither Paul nor Jesus explains exactly how we are to live by the Holy Spirit. It is assumed that believers will know how to do this. No practical instructions for "living by the Spirit" are given anywhere in the NT. Because of this, we must figure this out on our own, though we can certainly rely on the Holy Spirit's help.
4) Despite the lack of practical instructions, we do have a model, or standard, of what it is to live by the Holy Spirit. This model is none other than Jesus himself. All four gospels accounts show us a perfect picture of what it is for a man to live by the power of the Holy Spirit. And yes, it can be easily demonstrated that Jesus did, in fact, expect his followers to live the sort of life he modeled for them. But not only did he want them to be imitators, but even to even exceed the example he gave. (Jn 14:12)
5) We also have another model of what "living by the Spirit" is like for believers: the entire book of Acts. It clearly demonstrates that the early believers, moved in the power of the Spirit, and were able to do the same sort of miracles as Jesus did. Though the book of acts highlights the ministry of key apostles, there is nothing in the NT that limits the power of the Holy Spirit to apostles only. In fact, from Paul's instructions to the Corinthians, it seemed as if the charismatic gifts were distributed to a wide range of believers, regardless of influence. (1 Cor 12-14)
6) Two of the four gospels, Mark and John, take it as their starting point Jesus' baptism by John the Baptist, and his subsequent baptism by the Holy Spirit. Jesus did not do a thing, in terms of ministry, until he received the water and the Spirit baptisms. While many people were baptized at that time, it was only Jesus who received the gift of the Holy Spirit in power. Later, in the 2nd chapter of the book of Acts, we see how the Spirit was poured out upon the disciples after Jesus' ascension. The pouring out of the Spirit enabled the disciples to engage in the same sort of ministry that Jesus did, and move in power, signs and wonders. (Acts 2-5)
7) It is very important to realize that Jesus was fully man. While he certainly knew who he was, he did not claim any of the divine powers of his position. We often get the mistaken notion that Jesus moved in miracles because he was divine. But the truth of the matter is that he emptied himself of all divinity, other than his identity. He voluntarily chose to leave his divine power behind when he came to earth in human form. He was absolutely a man just like us, with all of our limitations, and had no more divine power than any of us do. He was completely man, and had to be so to correct the mistake of Adam. So where did his miracle working power come from? The Holy Spirit (and his obedience to the Holy Spirit). That is why his water/Spirit baptism is the logical starting point of his ministry. (Phil 2:6-7)
8) The Holy Spirit is promised to all who ask for it, the only prerequisite given is belief in Jesus. There are examples in the book of Acts of people receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit without even having yet received water baptism. (Acts 10:44-48)
9) The NT does not provide us with a standard, normative process for the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. However, it usually occurs when someone prays for someone else to receive it. (Acts 8:14-17) In all NT instances recorded where people receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit, it is accompanied by signs and wonders. Those signs include speaking in tongues, prophesying, visions, and so forth. There is nothing in the NT that states that the Holy Spirit is automatically given to a person who believes in Jesus. However, there are instances where it appears that believers are, in fact filled with the Spirit upon belief. But such instances are not the norm. (Acts 10:44-48, 11:15-18)
10) The Spirit is also a teacher, and a guide. His main purpose: to lead us into all truth. The teaching aspect of the Spirit, and its miracle working aspect are complimentary. One does not have to choose between one aspect or the other, both are available to those who desire them. The best source of orthodoxy is the Holy Spirit himself. If a believer lives a life abandoned to the Holy Spirit's guidance, it is impossible for them to be deceived about the things of God. Deception comes when the person and work of the Holy Spirit is minimized, distorted, or ignored. (1 Cor 2:1-16)
11) Throughout the NT epistles the apostles are encouraging believers to live by the Holy Spirit. Why do they do this if the Holy Spirit is already present within them? The reason has to do with the fact that the Holy Spirit does not take control of a believer. The believer is given absolute choice as to whether or not he wishes to live by the guidance of the Holy Spirit, or ignore it. The Holy Spirit is not a control mechanism, it is a truth mechanism! We must everyday, and every minute of the day, consciously choose to live by the leadings and guidance of the Holy Spirit.
12) This brings us back to the foundational issue of how to live by the Holy Spirit. First, you must pray for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, not just assume it's present. You can even have someone pray for you to have the Spirit's indwelling. The Holy Spirit can work from the "outside" as well as the "inside." Often people mistake the outside working as indwelling. Secondly, you must listen for the Spirit's guidance and direction, and know how to discern when the Spirit is speaking, and when other voices (your own, evil spirits, etc., ) are leading you. In order to learn how to listen, you must will yourself to listen. This involves a whole different aspect of prayer than what most of us our taught. This type of prayer is listening prayer, also known by many other names. In listening prayer, you literally will yourself to tune into the Holy Spirit, and minimize those other voices that are speaking to you. The Catholic church has a wonderful tradition of contemplative prayer, where one intentionally focuses himself on God, and sits in an attitude of listening, expecting God to speak to them through the Holy Spirit. When you engage in this spiritual discipline, you will hear God speaking to you in your thoughts. You will be able to discern the truth. You will be able to know when God is speaking, and when other voices are clamoring for your attention. Listening prayer--contemplation--meditation are absolutely critical disciplines for a Christian of any denomination. But since these are not explicitly taught or commanded in Scripture, they have become the lost disciplines of Christianity. Yet without these disciplines, we cannot know that still, small voice of God within.
My advice to believers is this: be familiar with all the teachings and positions regarding the end-times, but only count on the post-trib rapture position as being true. Why? Because this has the clearest and most complete scriptural support, and it also forces one to confront the idea of martyrdom, something we Americans only like to believe happens to "someone else."
On this Memorial Day, I think of all the veterans who gave their lives so that we might be free. I don't believe very many went off to war knowing they would die, though it was clear many were prepared to do so, if necessary. All I'm asking is that we ask Christians be of the same attitude. If there is any teaching or doctrine that asks for anything less than our willingness to die for our faith, then the only responsible thing to do is to take that teaching and toss it in the nearest garbage can.
Now, to one of your points in favor of the pre-trib:
Concerning a pre-tribulation rapture, I am compelled to Jesus’ promise given to the church of Philadelphia in Revelation 3. The name of the church means brotherly love and the promise to keep them from “the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth” is given because they have “kept the word of my patience”.
There are several severe problems with claiming Rev 3:10 as support for a pre-trib rapture. For purposes of this discussion, let's look at Rev 3:10 in the context where it appears, Jesus' words to the church of Philadelphia:
“To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open.I know your deeds. See, I have placed before you an open door that no one can shut. I know that you have little strength, yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name. I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you.
Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.
I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name.
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
- Revelation 3:7-13 NIV
The first problem with this passage is this: by what authority or rule of interpretation are we allowed to take a promise given to a particular individual or group of individuals in scripture and are allowed to make it a universal truth applicable to all Christians in all time? Well, there isn't one. What Jesus spoke to Philadelphia was true for the Philadelphians. Of course we can certainly learn some very good lessons from these words Jesus spoke, but there is no precedent for claiming their specific promises for the church in general!
Secondly, the promise that Jesus gave the Philadelphians has already been fulfilled. How do we know? That church has passed into the pages of history without ever having to endure the great tribulation! So Jesus' promise to them was true. They certainly had to endure the minor tribulations of their day, but ultimately escaped the great tribulation promised by scripture to the end-times church. The church of Philapdelphia was a real, actual church at that particular point in history. To spiritualize the church of Philadelphia as some sort of end-times church is beyond the bounds of acceptable interpretation.
Thridly, by what right are we allowed to take the passage "I will also keep you from the hour of trial" as being equivalent to the rapture? Is the rapture the only means by which someone could be kept from "the hour of trial?" The simple answer to that is 'no.' We know there are at least two other means whereby these words could be fulfilled without any sort of rapture entering into the picture.
The first way this promise can be fulfilled is exactly the same means by which is was literally fulfilled in history: the people of the church of Philadelphia have all died. So their deliverance from the "hour of trial" (the great tribulation) was by means of natural death.
The second way the promise can be fulfilled is God keeping us from "the hour of trial" by simply not allowing the events of the great tribulation to happen to believers while they still live on the earth. Is there precedence for this in scripture? Absolutely! As proof, look at the book of Exodus. In that book, God made a very clear distinction between the Hebrews and the Egyptians, and often targeted the plauges at the Egyptians alone. No need for the Hebrews to be raptured, they were perfectly safe while still being on this earth.
Again, if the pre-trib rapture is correct, then we need to see a passage where we can clearly perceive a rapture-like event taking place before the great tribulation and the unvieling of the antichrist and the physical, literal return of Jesus to earth.
So again Alamo-Girl, I challenge you to show me a passage where this order of events takes place!
Now, I do think there will be Christians who escape the martyrdom of the great tribulation and will be alive when Jesus returns, just as their were Jews who escaped the horrors of the holocaust to see the creation of the nation of Isreal. But I totally reject the idea of a "replacement church" being created to take our place during the tribulation period. It makes absolutely no sense. If God did not create "replacement Jews" to endure the evils of the holocaust, there is certainly no need for him to create replacement Christians to endure the end-times. Such an idea is completely without any scriptural support what-so-ever.
But then both Paul and Jesus declared the signs & wonders they performed as being legitmate grounds for believing their message! They obviously did not share your concern about those who were not spiritually mature! And in the narrative accounts where people receive the Holy Spirit, there is almost always some sort of accompanying sign or wonder, whether it be prophetic utterances, speaking in tongues, or something else. If these signs are not explicitly stated, the are implicit--like with Simon the Magician of Acts 8.
The important thing is to discern if the signs match the words. If we see someone who has a life filled with signs and wonders, and he preaches Jesus Christ come in the flesh and crucified, then I would have no problem believing this person to be a servant of God.
But if there is a person doing signs and wonders, and thereby claiming that they, themselves were god, then I would have a serious problem!
That is the proper attitude to have. If we are truly rooted and established in Jesus, then one can honestly look forward to God's judgments! There is no fear, not even the fear of death.
But you point out something here that is crucial in understanding the difference between the pre-trib and post-trib position: the characteristics of the great tribulation. Will it be only "the wrath of God" as you say, or could the great tribulation speak to the unprecedented persecution of the church?
Now Alamo-Girl, I already know that niether you, nor anyone else who hold's the view of the pre-trib rapture as being true, actually believes that the great tribulation is only God's wrath and nothing more. How do I know this? Because everyone I know who holds the pre-trib position as being true also believes that there will be a "replacement church" after the rapture who has to bear the brunt of the wrath of the antichrist. So it's not only about God's wrath, is it? The great tribulation is primarily about satan's wrath against the church. I don't know any pre-trib teacher who teaches that our replacements, alive during the tribulation, are going to be subject to God's wrath. Well, if they are not subject to His wrath, then why do we need to be raptured in order to escape God's wrath???
But we alredy know from various scriptures that the great tribulation is about the persecution of believers, not God's wrath. It is important to note that "tribulation" is often used as a synonym for persecution or trials. ("distress" in the NIV) Notice this article from the NT Word Study Dictionary:
(IV) Christians are not exempt from tribulation, but rather they are especially subject to it. Their tribulation consists largely of persecution and the opposition their testimony meets in an unfriendly world. "The persecution that arose about Stephen" (Acts 11:19), was, of course, thlípsis. Paul speaks of all the "persecutions and tribulations" which the Thessalonians endured (2 Thess. 1:4). They received the word "with much tribulation" (a.t.), and Paul entreats them not to "be moved by these tribulations" (a.t. [1 Thess. 1:6; 3:3]). In 2 Cor. 8:2, we are told that the churches of Macedonia experienced much tribulation. Paul exhorts other converts to be "patient in tribulation" (a.t.), and to bless them that persecute them (Rom. 12:12, 14). In his work of evangelization, the apostle met with much tribulation. He told the elders of Ephesus that "tribulations" awaited him (Acts 20:23). He gloried in tribulations (Rom. 5:3), feeling that neither tribulation, nor anguish, nor persecution could separate him from the love of Christ (Rom. 8:35). In this passage he is referring to the difficulties and the dangers which he met with in his proclamation of the gospel. Tribulations are mentioned in the list he gives of his trials in 2 Cor. 6:4, 5. Bad experiences and news caused him tribulation (2 Cor. 1:8; 2:4; 4:8).(V) Tribulation, then, to the early Christians meant not so much ill health, poverty or loss of friends, but the sacrifices they had to make and the perils they had to meet from their proclamation or profession of Christ. In Hebrews, the writer says that after his readers were converted, they "endured a great conflict of sufferings; partly, being made a gazing stock, both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, becoming partakers with them that were so used" (a.t. [Heb. 10:33 {cf. 11:37}]). Tribulation is the appointed destiny of Christians. Paul reminds the Thessalonians that both he and they were appointed unto tribulation, and that he had told them before that they were to suffer tribulation (1 Thess. 3:3f.). John is also a partaker in the "tribulation and kingdom and patience which are in Jesus" (a.t. [Rev. 1:9]); and he tells the church of Smyrna that they shall suffer tribulation 10 days (Rev. 2:10). "Through many tribulations we must enter into the kingdom of God" (a.t. [Acts 14:22]). The Christian is presented in the Scriptures as being joyful in tribulation since there is a deeper experience of the presence of Christ and of the kingdom of God when tribulations come. In the face of much affliction the churches of Macedonia had an abundance of joy (2 Cor. 8:2). The Thessalonians received the word with much tribulation, with joy of the Holy Ghost (1 Thess. 1:6).
Zodhiates, Spiros. The Complete Word Study Dictionary : New Testament. electronic ed., G2347. Chattanooga, TN: AMG Publishers, 2000, c1992, c1993.
It is clear, from the above article, the Christians are not exempt from tribulation, no matter if it's a "great" one or not. It is also clear from the above article that "tribulation" cannot be linked soley to the wrath of God. God uses tribulation as a tool for our purification and our maturity. Perhaps the tribulation will be "great" before his final coming because the time for reaching maturity will be so very short, and there's nothing like a good does of tribulation to help someone mature more quickly!
But back to Matthew. Does Jesus tell us in the Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24 & 25) whether this "great tribulation" will be a persecuction of believers or will it be God's wrath against the world? He does tell us, and the answer to this question is crystal clear from the context of his warning:
"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.
Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. [Why warn us to "stand firm to the end" if we aren't going to be here to experience any of this???]
And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers!
Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.
For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.
If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.
At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible. See, I have told you ahead of time.
- Matthew 24:9-25 NIV
It is clear from this context that Jesus is speaking of the great tribulation as a tremendous persecution of believers, not "God's wrath." As a matter of fact, he has nothing to say about God's wrath unitl nearly the end of chapter 24, when he starts to compare the end-times to the times of Noah. But there he is specifically speaking of God's wrath against wicked unbelievers, not against the world in general.
A very key point in this passage is that the great "distress" (as the NIV puts it) will not occur until after then antichrist is revealed: "the abombination that causes desolation." So it is the wrath of satan that Jesus is warning believers about, not the wrath of God. It is implicit in that the antichrist is revealed right before the great tribulation takes place.
So Alamo-Girl, another false belief concerning the pre-trib rapture is destroyed using nothing but scitpure, logic, and a little word study.
But here is something else to consider....
Just where in scritpure is it promised to us that the church of the end-times, or anyone alive in the church at the beginning of the end-times, will escape the tribulation through a rapture-like event? Remeber, this promise needs to be for the church in general, not to a specific body of believers at a specific point in history: i.e., the church in Philadelphia.
Are those who put their faith in a pre-trib rapture believing in a promise that simply does not exist in scripture? If so, then why do they believe it???
But concerning the doctrine of "once saved, always saved" I believe the Scriptures are clear that Christ will let nothing come between Him and a believer. However, I am also compelled that every believer has free will which God will respect and thus a person can, of his own free will, reject Jesus to his eternal peril. (Hebrews 10:29)As you know, I do not believe in the "onces saved, always saved" doctrine. But it is important to note than people have free will, and choose at their own peril.
However, I do not believe this is easily done. Things originating from such as a bad dream, a temper tantrum, anger in grief would not be the same as a free will decision. The Spirit knows the thoughts and intents of the heart even if we do not.
Excellent point. Personally, I do believe there is such a thing as assurance of salvation, and an individual can be assured of their salvation through the witness of the Holy Spirit, and the abscense of a heart that condemns them.
But assurance is not the same thing as "once saved, always saved." Such a belief is impossible to prove with scripture, and goes way beyond the bounds of good theology. Stating that a person is "always saved" is the same thing as stating that they are saved unconditionally. There is clearly no precedent for unconditional salvation.
Jesus and the apostles take great pains to communicate to us that salvation is conditional on the life we lead after the point of salvation.
However, it's not that hard to live a life that's pleasing to God, if you so desire. That's why God has sent us the Holy Spirit, to help us "win the prize," so to speak. God does not leave us to figure out salavation on our own, but sends help by means of the church, the Holy Spirit, and the Word of Truth to guide us.
For Lurkers, the first letter is at post 46 and the second is at post 58.
I shall present my response in the same format:
I see that brother Allen has also written a welcome letter to you. He has much to share with you in your walk with the Lord and I’m sure you’ll enjoy his fellowship.
Brother Allen has cautioned you about Docetic Gnosticism evidently because he was concerned that you might believe that I thought Christ did not come in the body and/or that I am a Dualist. As he suggested, I obviously believe that Christ came in a physical body.
Dualism is a more difficult subject because it has many historical meanings with new implications in light of suggestions by certain scientists that the mind is an epiphenomenon of the physical brain. It is a technical subject involving theology, philosophy and science and can wait until you feel ready to examine all of it to make up your own mind. But if you are really compelled to form an opinion at this time, you might want to research the names and subjects on the link above and read some books by Steven Pinker and especially, the rebuttals to his theories. Or you can short-cut it by looking at the discussion on this other thread.
But brother Allen is right to be concerned for you in that he wants to be sure you are well grounded in the faith.
There is much to take in and people will be throwing things your way which may sound very confusing and difficult to understand. Some may be alarmingly vigorous in advocating their views and even forget that you are new to all of this and don’t know the “lingo”. Please don’t be discouraged – there will be plenty of time to get your arms around all of it.
You may be wondering how you will ever know who, or what theology, to trust when there are vigorous disagreements between those trying to share things with you. And it is very important to get off on the right foot. Certainly, it is easier to follow a mentor than to learn everything yourself. And if you choose to follow a mentor, you’ll need to be careful he is not going to lead you down the wrong path (Matthew 7:13).
I would rather that you listen only to God according to the Scriptures and the leading of the Holy Spirit. But that is asking a lot of anyone new to all of this, so I do understand if you are more comfortable with a mentor at least to start.
Whether you choose to rely on a mentor or not, I have a bit of advise for you, right out of Scripture. Look at the fruits of the one speaking about Spiritual matters (Matthew 7:15-22). Christ said a bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit. Good fruits are such things as love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness and self-control. (Galatians 5:22-23) If you see all these things and the person confesses the same Triune God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) – then listen carefully to everything he says. But don’t stop there.
Later, when you are alone, compare what he said to what is in the Scriptures. The Bereans did the same thing (Acts 17:10-11) and the Scriptures tell us they were “noble” to do so. If everything said is backed up by your own reading of the Scriptures then go one more step and pray about it. Ask the Holy Spirit to help you understand all of more fully and to write the Truth in your heart.
Again, welcome to the body of Christ through the indwelling Holy Spirit!
Peace and love in Christ,
Your sister in the Lord, Sandi
Postsalvation sin will not remove us from the love of God. We don't get away with sin, because sin after salvation merely results in our loss of some of our inheritance,...not salvation.
Salvation is merely from an eternal separation from God in the lake of Fire,...which is significant in and off itself, but there is absolutely nothing we can do to trump the faith of Christ on the cross. He is already resurrected and partly glorified in heaven. Just as His faith resulted in that resurrection even after ALL sins of mankind were imputed upon Him and judged, any man also having faith in Him will have eternal life.
If that eternal life is perishable, then God is no longer faithful or deserving faith of having died as a substitutionary atonement for all sin. This is what many Calvinists would like fellow believers to agree with because they seek for others to feel sorry for themselves.
Salvation has nothing to do with feeling sorry for oneself. It's purely dependent upon faith in Him.
And yet we constantly hear that since no one can know the day or the hour, that we are NOT to know anything about the coming of the Lord! This verse refutes that pretty much. We are to watch the signs, and pray, and "Look up..!"
However – and this is a big however – these are the understandings I have received in the Spirit. They are how the living Word has brought the Scriptures alive within me.
I do not allow my own reasoning to override the Spirit. (Proverbs 3:5) Neither shall I allow yours to override Him. Trying to convince me to do so is pointless!
Truly, I cannot explain why He has given me a different understanding than yours, but that’s just the way it is and we shall have to agree to disagree.
But before I leave this conversation, concerning wrath….
God will not be causing Satan to persecute the believers to execute His wrath but rather He will establish His righteous, final judgment by taking away that which is preventing Satan from doing so even now, namely the Holy Spirit. (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8) This is very much like He righteously judged the Egyptians by repeatedly hardening Pharoah’s heart. Pharoah was utterly exposed and vanquished as evil will be.
When the Holy Spirit is taken up, evil will move in power. Of course, evil will go after everything and everyone affiliated with God! That will include all the Christians who didn’t have the oil in their lamps, who weren’t prepared – and all the Jews. These are the martyrs we see coming out of the Great Tribulation.
The Christians who are prepared will be filled with the Holy Spirit (the "Philadelphians"). They are already dead to the flesh but alive in the Spirit. So when the Spirit is taken up, they will of a necessity go with Him. The ones who are not prepared won't be able to go.
I realize you vehemently disagree with this understanding, but that is what I have received in the Spirit so we shall have to agree to disagree.
Thanks for the engaging debate!
Just glancing through the thread and will read and study further.
On the issue of pre, mid, post-tribulation, I once heard it said, "Some may be pre-trib, some mid-trib, while still others post-trib. The most important thing is however, is not to be a post-toastie."
Thanks for the presentation.
I'm interested in reading your comments. Please be sure to ping me - I have a family reunion from Thursday to Monday and won't be able to Freep until I get back.
Correct--for now we must disagree! But it's interesting how it all comes back to the Holy Spirit!
I really appreciate the opportunity to debate you on this topic! It was a great learning experience, and hopefully the lurkers reading these posts learned a thing or two as well. This is what makes the Free Republic such an excellent resource!
You did a fine job presenting the pre-trib position. You covered most, if not all the main points in favor of it. But your last point is the most important point of all: it's what you received in the Spirit. Some people may think that's a silly way to discern truth, but it's amazing how accurate those Spirit illuminations can be.
The wonderful thing about this particular topic, is that there will ultimately be a "right answer." Whether we are alive here on earth, or have a ring-side seat in heaven, we will see how the end-times ulimately plays out, and all the mystery and confustion will be removed, once and for all. Personally, I hope the pre-trib position is the correct one! But according to insight and the illumination the Spirit gave me, I must be the champion for the post-tribulation ratpure, especially since there's very few, if any evangelicals who hold to that viewpoint. It's a rather scary and unsettling way to look at the end-times, so I don't blame people for teaching a pre-trib rapture, it's so much more reassuring! It was due to that reassurance that I believed in it so strongly for many years.
Yet there is one significant point I have, other than the Spirit's leading, that has caused me to strongly favor the post-trib position, and that point is it's simplicity and elegance. While that might seem a rather subjective way to evalute a position, the fact is we do it all the time, and by looking for a elegant solution, we usually find the greatest truths.
There are many more complications to the pre-trib position that simply don't exist in the post-trib viewpoint. Here's a list of just a few:
1.) There will be a "secret" rapture where Christians will simply disappear without a trace, and this will happen seven years before Jesus really comes back to earth.
2.) Because the pre-trib teachers insist that it is Jesus who comes and rapture the believers, they are forced into the unenviable position of believing in a second and a third coming of Jesus. The second coming is the rapture, and the third coming is when Jesus comes back to earth to reign. Often, it is taught that are two raptures as well, one at the beginning of the seven year tribulation period, and one at the end.
3.) A "new" church will be raised up as people realize that the truth of what happened to all those Christians! However, this is going to be a rather bizzare entity, in that there will be no Holy Spirit for them to rely upon. He's gone...
4.) The reason the church and the Holy Spirit go away is so that God can deal with the Jews. However, this idea is often contradicted by the fact that a new psuedo-church is raised up amongst those who are "left behind..." So God, in fact, does not deal with the Jews alone...
With the post-trib position, there is only one return of Christ--to both rapture the saints and to set up rule on earth. There is only one rapture. There is no need for the Holy Spirit to disappear along with the church. There is no need for a "replacement" psuedo-church. There is no special emphasis on Israel, though Israel does have a special role to play in the end-times. (But her role is geographic, not spiritual.)
It is a simple, elegant doctrine, and one that completely harmonizes with scritpure. You will never find a verse or passage that contradicts it --I should know, I've been looking for one for over ten years!
There is a lot to be said for simplicity. The gospel message of salvation is a very simple message. The core truths of the Bible can easily be understood by a child.
In the end, the post-trib position wins the prize for simplicity and elegance. When looking for truth, simplicity and elegance are very important signposts.
The only downside to the pre-trib position is one of fear. People absolutely hate even thinking about the possiblity of going through the tribualation period, even though there will be Christians who make it through to the end. Personally, I don't blame them for hating the idea. Yet when Jesus came to this earth, knowing full well the extremely painful fate that awaited him, he somehow managed to do all that his Father had in store for him, including the Passion! Why should God expect anything less from us?
Well, that's my take on things, thanks to many insights the Holy Spirit has given me over the years.
Thanks so much for giving me this opportunity to share a view of the end-times not many people consider. If nothing else, it will certainly provide food for thought, and perhaps even further bible study, which is always a good thing!
Re-reading this, I forgot to mention the most important point of all: if we do sin, as we try to live a life pleasing to God, we can count on their being forgiveness, thanks to Jesus' sacrifice on the cross!
Clearly, you can't "lose" your salvation like losing your car keys! You have to choose to deny Jesus, and then go off on some other path. Losing your salvation is not an accidental affair, but a deliberate choice.
For those of us who choose Jesus, and do so day after day, no matter life's circumstances, they can be fully assured that they will be in eternity with Him.
But for those who initially accept the Good News, but then turn away from Jesus because of the difficulties and sufferings inherent in life, they should not expect to find themselves in paradise. Nor do I think they would want to be there, for they would have to be with someone they had decided they didn't want anything to do with: Jesus himself.
Thanks so much for your encouragement! The scriptures are not kind to the pre-trib position, not kind at all!
I learned a valuable lesson on my journey from pre-trib to post-trib: no matter what any teacher of the Word says, and no matter their credentials, always check it out the Word for yourself.
Glad you liked the article Quix! I recently updated it, and so I'm posting the "new, improved" version to you. I added some more scritpure references, and tried to make the language a bit clearer and more succint.
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My understanding of the person and ministry of the Holy Spirit from scripture and experience
1) Paul, in his letters, is constantly stressing the need to "live by the Spirit." This is especially so in his letter to the Galatians. Living by the Spirit and being controlled by the Spirit is absolutely critical for living a righteous Christian life. The Holy Spirit is the power that enables us to live a godly life. (Ga 5:16-26)
2) Jesus, in the Last Supper discourse in the book of John, tells his disciples that it's a good thing he's leaving them! (To die, and be resurrected, then to ascend to heaven.) The reason it was to their advantage was so that the "helper" (Holy Spirit) would be sent to them. Jesus thought it better for the disciples to have the Holy Spirit with them, than for He, himself to stay. This is not just false humility on Jesus' part, he honestly believed that it was better for the disciples to have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit than for himself to continue leading and guiding them. If Jesus thinks the impartation Holy Spirit is that important for believers, then we can be assured that it should be a priority for us to know and understand the Holy Spirit and his ministry. (Jn 16:5-16)
3) Neither Paul nor Jesus explains exactly how we are to live by the Holy Spirit. It is assumed that believers will know how to do this. No practical instructions for "living by the Spirit" are given anywhere in the NT (though there are many guidelines for ethical living). Because of the lack of instructions, we must figure this out how to do this on our own, though we can certainly rely on the Holy Spirit's help in the matter (Jn 16:5-16)
4) Despite the lack of practical instructions, we do have a model, or standard, of what it is to live by the Holy Spirit. This model is none other than Jesus himself. All four gospels accounts show us a perfect picture of what it is for a man to live by the power of the Holy Spirit. And yes, it can be easily demonstrated that Jesus did, in fact, expect his followers to live the sort of life he modeled for them. But not only did he want them to be imitators, but to exceed the example he gave. (Jn 14:12)
5) We also have another model of what "living by the Spirit" is like for believers: the entire book of Acts. It clearly demonstrates that the early believers moved in the power of the Holy Spirit and were able to do the same sort of miracles as Jesus. Though the book of Acts highlights the ministry of key apostles, there is nothing in the NT that limits the power of the Holy Spirit to apostles only. In fact, from Paul's instructions to the Corinthians, it seemed as if the charismatic gifts were distributed to a wide range of believers, regardless of their position (1 Cor 12-14).
6) Two of the four gospels, Mark and John, take it as their starting point Jesus' baptism by John the Baptist and his subsequent baptism by the Holy Spirit. Jesus did not do a thing, in terms of ministry, until he received the water and the Spirit baptisms. While many people were baptized at that time, it was only Jesus who received the gift of the Holy Spirit in power. Later, in the 2nd chapter of the book of Acts, we see how the Spirit was poured out upon the disciples after Jesus' ascension. The pouring out of the Spirit enabled the disciples to engage in the same sort of ministry Jesus did, and move in power, signs and wonders. (Acts 2-5)
7) It is very important to realize that Jesus was fully man (Phil 2:5-11). While he certainly knew who he was, he did not claim any of the divine powers of his position. We often get the mistaken notion that Jesus moved in miracles because he was divine. But the truth of the matter is that he emptied himself of all divinity, other than his identity. He voluntarily chose to leave his divine power behind when he came to earth in human form. He was absolutely a man just like us, with all of our limitations, and had no more divine power than any of us do. He was completely man, and had to be so to correct the mistake of Adam. So where did his miracle working power come from? The Holy Spirit (and his obedience to the Holy Spirit/Father). That is why his water/Spirit baptism is the logical starting point of his ministry. When Jesus performed miralces, it was not just to identify himself as the Messiah, although that was an important aspect of the miracles (Jn 10:22-39). But according to Jesus himself, the miracles were a sign that the kingdom of heaven had come to earth (Mat 12:22-28). Hence, he authorized his disciples to move in miracles as well, as a further demonstration of the power of the kingdom of God (Mat 10, Luke 9 & 10).
8) The Holy Spirit is promised to all who ask for it, the only prerequisite given is belief in Jesus (Lk 11:9-12). There are examples in the book of Acts of people receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit without even having yet received water baptism. (Acts 10:44-48)
9) The NT does not provide us with a standard, normative process for the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. However, it usually occurs when someone prays for someone else to receive it. (Acts 8:14-17) In all NT instances recorded where people receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit, it is accompanied by signs and wonders. Those signs include speaking in tongues, prophesying, visions, and so forth. There is nothing in the NT that states that the Holy Spirit is automatically given to a person who believes in Jesus. However, there are instances where it appears that believers are, in fact filled with the Spirit upon belief. But such instances are not the norm in narrative accounts. (Acts 10:44-48, 11:15-18)
10) The Spirit is also a teacher, and a guide. His main purpose: to lead us into all truth (Jn 14:15-17, 14:25-26, 16:5-15). The teaching aspect of the Spirit, and its miracle working aspect are complimentary. One does not have to choose between one aspect or the other, both are available to those who desire them. The best source of orthodoxy is the Holy Spirit himself. If a believer lives a life abandoned to the Holy Spirit's guidance, it is impossible for them to be deceived about the things of God. Deception comes when the person and work of the Holy Spirit is minimized, distorted, or ignored. (1 Cor 2:1-16)
11) Throughout the NT epistles the apostles are encouraging believers to live by the Holy Spirit. Why do they do this if the Holy Spirit is already present within the believers? The reason has to do with the fact that the Holy Spirit does not take control of a believer. The believer is given absolute choice as to whether or not he wishes to live by the guidance of the Holy Spirit, or ignore it. The Holy Spirit is not a control mechanism, it is a truth mechanism! We must everyday, and every minute of the day, consciously choose to live by the leadings and guidance of the Holy Spirit (Rom 8:1-17, Gal 5:13-26, 6:7-8).
12) This brings us back to the foundational issue of how to live by the Holy Spirit. First, you must pray for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, not just assume it's present. You can even have someone pray for you to have the Spirit's indwelling. The Holy Spirit can work from the "outside" as well as the "inside." Often people mistake the outside working as indwelling. Secondly, you must listen for the Spirit's guidance and direction, and know how to discern when the Spirit is speaking, and when other voices (your own, evil spirits, etc., ) are leading you. In order to learn how to listen, you must will yourself to listen. This involves a whole different aspect of prayer than what most of us are taught. This type of prayer is listening prayer, also known by many other names. In listening prayer, you literally tune into the Holy Spirit, and tune-out those other voices that are speaking to you. The Catholic church has a wonderful tradition of contemplative prayer, where one intentionally focuses themself upon God, and waits in an attitude of listening, expecting God to speak to them through the Holy Spirit. When you engage in this spiritual discipline, you will hear God speaking to you in your thoughts. You will be able to discern the truth. You will be able to know when God is speaking, and when other voices are clamoring for your attention. Listening prayer--contemplation--meditation are absolutely critical disciplines for a Christian of any denomination. But since these are not explicitly taught or commanded in Scripture, they have become the lost disciplines of Christianity. Yet without these disciplines, we cannot know that still, small voice of God within.
source: http://theodicy.org/holyspirit.htm
(I decided to post this "improved" article on my own internet site.)
The Spirit has confirmed my understanding of the Philadelphians but has not been conclusive as to the when of their rapture, whether it is pre-trib or mid-trib. And as I mentioned at (post 12), I do indeed expect several raptures.
But to get back to the difference in our understanding from the Spirit, I would like to point out the differences between Peter, Paul and John. Although it is clear they were all being led of the Holy Spirit, Peter and Paul certainly had some doctrinal disputes that flared up in Acts 15 but resulted in the Gospel being spread even further than if they had not had the dispute!
More specific to the point in this tribulation discussion – both Peter and Paul were martyred but John was not..
Here is the difference – both with John being spared martyrdom and the Philadelphians being spared from the hour of temptation that will test the whole world - in both cases there is a presence of a special love by Jesus (emphasis mine):
Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee?
Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what [shall] this man [do]? Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what [is that] to thee? follow thou me. – John 21:19-22
Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, [which is] new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and [I will write upon him] my new name.
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
After all, the Spirit of God in Revelation 1-5 appears as seven-fold. I sense this like a diamond with seven facets – one Holy Spirit, seven aspects. Back in post 4, I was wondering whether the Comforter is but one of these. I am now with the understanding that the Comforter is all of these and that is why Christians of good conscience can have what we believe are differences but are not.
I wholeheartedly agree, Ronzo. Listening prayer-contemplation-meditation ought to be made a regular part of one's daily life. Wonderful essay!
THANKS MUCH.
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