Why Catholics can't preach - and prefer not to listen

Oriens journal ^ | Summer 2004 | Editorial

[Campion]

That is because each local group of believers is the whole Body of Christ.

How many bodies does Christ have? Funny, St. Paul talks about one body and one baptism, and says all are now one in Christ Jesus.

However, this is a divergent argument. Lets first finish our debate

Having a little trouble at this point defending some of your unBiblical ideas?

Scripture is not God. That is the error called "Bibliolatry". Scripture is God-breathed, but it is not God. The Logos which St. John proclaims to be Divine is Jesus Christ himself, the eternal word of God in human flesh.

[Sensei Ern]

"How many bodies does Christ have? Funny, St. Paul talks about one body and one baptism, and says all are now one in Christ Jesus."

Yes, just as God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are three, they are also, one.

"Having a little trouble at this point defending some of your unBiblical ideas?"

No, I am only concerned that this should be a separate topic which a new thread should be started.

Sensei Ern

[HarleyD]

Thank you. I've bookmarked it for future reference. I always appreciate reading both sides of the issue. I usually use the Catholic Encyclopedia New Advent which I find to be bias but thorough.

[ladyinred]

I'm sorry, could you point to the part where the pope states that Muslims "don't need to convert".

With all due respect, the quote from the Pope posted in the above post makes it appear they don't need to convert in his opinion. Do you think he means something else, or that I am misunderstanding his comments?

[conservonator]

The Scripture MUST be self-interpreting. It declares Itself to be God in written form in that It attributes Itself all of the characteristics we attribute to God. That is, It is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. It is without error. It is only good, not evil. And finally, in the Gospel of John, It declares Itself to be God. God cannot be defined outside of His Own revelation. Neither can His Word be defined outside Its Own revelation. Sensie Ern

This is totally your interpretation and has no foundation in scripture or reality. In fact it flies in the face of Scripture its self. Remember the Philip and the Eunuch remember the admonition against personal prophecy?

The wealth of Protestant Churches is evidence in-and of itself against the notion of the self interpreting Bible.

Christ, being God, knew that this would be a problem which is why He established His Church in Matthew 18.

[conservonator]

Wow, what a hoot. "Accept Jesus, be saved and get a free Play Station II!" This has got to be a parody, no?

Yes, but sadly, so close to the truth of some denominations that some people cant tell the difference.

[conservonator]

Do you think he means something else, or that I am misunderstanding his comments?

You misunderstood his comment.

[Sensei Ern]

We are back to where we started. We are once again addressing the issue as whether the leaders of the Catholic Church are to be the authority of doctrine.

You hold it to be yes, based on the belief that Christ gave the leadership of the Church to interpret the Bible. Who tells you this? The very people who claim to have the authority.

I hold that the Bible Itself defines its meaning. Where things are obvious, we can agree; where they are not obvious, we can agree to disagree.

While I hold that teachers of the Word of God are to be honored and we are to learn from them, I also believe we are to question their premises by examining the Word of God to see they are speaking the Word of God and not man. As the saying goes, "Power corrupts." We have seen this in Catholic leaders such as power and land grabs in Europe as well as religious persecution like the Inquisition.

The Catholic Church has reversed itself on many doctrines. It has instituted many new doctrines. Were the former leaders wrong?

Did God change His mind?

God did not change. The leaders were wrong. Since they were wrong, the leadership today can be wrong. Since they are fallible, we must find authority in the Infallible...the Word of God.

Sensei Ern

[conservonator]

You hold it to be yes, based on the belief that Christ gave the leadership of the Church to interpret the Bible. Who tells you this?

Christ.

You can hold what ever belief you like, in the end you practice a religion of your own design, not Christs.

[Sensei Ern]

I refuse to go more than one lap around a subject. SO, I will end our conversation.
Sensei Ern

[Sensei Ern]

Me: You hold it to be yes, based on the belief that Christ gave the leadership of the Church to interpret the Bible. Who tells you this?

conservonator: Christ.

conservonator: You can hold what ever belief you like, in the end you practice a religion of your own design, not Christs.

__________________________________________________________

While I decided to initially not continue this conversation, I am compelled to ask:

It is obvious that Christ did not appear in person and tell you personally that the Catholic Church leadership has the authority to interpret the Bible. Yet, you say that Christ told you this. How did Christ tell you this?


Sensei Ern

[conservonator]

It is obvious that Christ did not appear in person and tell you personally that the Catholic Church leadership has the authority to interpret the Bible.

Obvious? How do you know who He has and has not appeared to?

Yet, you say that Christ told you this. How did Christ tell you this?

Through:

• Scripture study
• Study of early Church history
• The common sense and reasoning ability He gave me
• Grace

The list order is not indicative of importance.

[Sensei Ern]

Me: Yet, you say that Christ told you this. How did Christ tell you this?

conservonator :
"Through:

Scripture study
Study of early Church history
The common sense and reasoning ability He gave me
Grace"

"Scripture study" In post 69 you admonished personal prophesy.

"Study of early Church history" That is, the church 'said' it had the authority.

"The common sense and reasoning ability He gave me" I again refer you to 69, and personal prophecy.

"Grace" Before I can answer this, please define further what you are referring to. Our definitions of Grace may be dramatically different. Grace to me means: unmerited favor.

Sensei Ern

[conservonator]

Grace

YOPIOS that leads to the development of dogma is what is condemned. Personal scripture study, guided by Him and His talents that lead one to the truth and inevitably His Church is not creating self serving dogma. Apples and oranges.

You read the bible and make up your own rules based on your interpretations (I don't believe you do this out of malice), I read the bible and follow His rules: you can too, you just need to realize that He left us His Church because He loves us and wants us to be able to know the fullness of truth. To know the fullness of truth you must recognize your limitations and understand the He who created you loves you and would not cast you adrift in a sea of personal interpretation. The Church is His gift to you so that you may know Him in the fullness that is possible for men.

Why do you fear early Church history?

[Sensei Ern]

For the sake of discussion, could you please define in a sentence, what meaning of "grace" you are referring to in your previous posting? I understand you cannot encompass the entire meaning of grace as defined by the link you provided, but I just don't have time to read the entire page and its links.

I do not fear early church history. Nor, do I fear early Chatolic history. What concerns me is embracing a religion that relies on the decisions of a group whose numbers included men of power who used that power for ulterior motives to determine my relationship with God, but the judgement of the good men was too marred to not prevent nor punish those who did wrong.

I will not embrace a religion that allows criminals who abuse children and then only gives them a slap on the wrists. This same religion in its past has burned people at the stake, caused wars and turtured people who question rule by such a misguided heirarchy.

Fear is not even remotely in my attitude. I do not fear anything that happens to me as I am fully surrendered to God and all that happens to me is His Will.

[conservonator]

Grace= free gift from God that enables us to do His will.

If you look at the Church and see only the sins of the men who serve as the human administrators of the Divine institution, how can you persuade a non-Christian that the KKK or other sin soaked "Christian" organizations or movements don't represent Christianity? Man are fallible and pron to sin, the Church is far more than the pope, bishops and priests charged with the feeding and tending of His flock. The Church, at it's core is the vessel of truth. The container may be damaged, dirty and at times unrecognizable but the contents are forever pure. Look past the sins of man and see Him.