Latin Mass Attracts Young Worshippers and Converts in Bob Jones University Territory

The Greenville News ^ | 4/27/04 | Ron Barnett

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

It has potential for restoration ;-)

[ultima ratio]

I certainly would wish to promote a good fraternity of honest Catholic priests! Why not? I have never considered them excommunicated and there is no evidence whatsoever for any claim that they are schismatic, beyond the claim of this Pope who has been wrong on so much that I've stopped keeping track. Believe me, Rome has tried to fly the false charge of schism over and over--though it has never made even the most primitive attempt to prove how this could be so. The Archbishop stole no jurisdiction, organized no parallel church structures, professed no new or unusual doctrines. Nor had he ever stop affirming the legitimacy of JPII as Pontiff--in the face of the sedevacantists who urged that he do so--especially in light of the horrific scandal of Assisi. Yes, the Archbishop disobeyed, consecrating without a papal mandate--but disobedience is not schism. If it were, most bishops today would be in schism. In fact, the Archbishop disobeyed an unlawful command in order to protect the faith--a command which was patently illegitimate because it would directly harm the Church and cause the loss of many souls--and therefore he most certainly acted properly. You don't want to deal with this--you'd rather call names. Fine. But that doesn't make your preposterous claims of "schism" right.

[Grey Ghost II]

The invitation is rescinded. We don't need that poison in our growing and evangelical traddie community. We need people who will attract others to the Faith when fighting aginst the fundies--NOT people to drive them away.

I sincerely apologize if I offended you. The church was obviously designed with the Novus ordo and modernism in mind. Why are there pillows on the floor of the sanctuary? Look at the crucifix - Why does the corpus look more like a hula dancer?

I have been in your position….spiritually starved. I can see why a twice-a-month Sunday Tridentine Mass is so appealing, but it’s only a snack. Why discourage royalcello from attending the SSPX chapel which is a spiritual banquet of tradition with two Sunday Masses every week of the year, all the sacraments, catechism, public processions and devotions, traditional sermons, etc?

Has your bishop guaranteed the Mass in Greenville for any period of time or is the FSSP operating on a week-to-week basis? Why has your diocese lost two of its best priests to the SSPX in the last 18 months? Why did Bishop Baker’s rising star Fr. Christopher Danel leave the Charleston diocese for the SSPX?

If you don’t like the SSPX then don’t attend. Our Masses don’t get yanked from us. We don’t have to move around the country chasing after good priests not knowing from week to week whether they will be allowed to say the Mass which was guaranteed to them in perpetuity. We don’t have to compromise our Catholic beliefs and traditions for fear that we will be seen as troublemakers.

You have a standing, open invitation to assist at the Mass of all time, on a weekly basis, an hour and a half up the road - an invitation that won't be rescinded.

[ultima ratio]

You write this: "You counsel disobedience to the Pope. You falsely accuse him of being unorthodox. You call him a 'Novus Ordo authority'. It is quite clear that your intent is schismatic."

First, it is not true I counsel disobedience to the Pope. How have I done this? I counsel nothing except that people should profess and defend the faith.

Second, I do not falsely accuse the Pope of being unorthodox--he IS unorthodox! How many other pontiffs in history have prayed to the Great Thumb or kissed the Koran, do you think? How many have awarded the red hat to a man who is a heretic? How many have given a pectoral cross to the Archbishop of Canterbury? Give me a break. This is not an orthodox pope. Preconciliar popes are turning over in their graves due to the anomalies of this pontificate.

Third, I have never called the Pope a "Novus Ordo authority." I use this term generically, never specifically to refer to anybody.

You smear with a very broad brush.

[kstewskis]

these...are... disturbing.

As is the entire "Taj Mahoney."

Children's play area? A serpent. Wolf staring down sheep. I can't quite make out the second item, it looks like a triangle with script around it...is it Masonic? I see another serpent within it.

The symbolism is chilling. I will share it with her. My guess is that she will brush it off, but who knows.

[Land of the Irish]

You have a standing, open invitation to assist at the Mass of all time, on a weekly basis, an hour and a half up the road - an invitation that won't be rescinded.

Thank-you.

What are the times of your two Masses and when is the sacrament of Confession? I will be visiting Greenville soon, but it will be on the first Sunday of June. Do you have a first Saturday Mass? I'm willing to make the drive, regardless.

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

I'm not entirely certain about the triangle. pascendi has some good insights on the pictures. It could mean a lot of things, but His Eminence has placed a good deal of shamanic and astrological symbolism in the area. I didn't post one of the pics (click on the link) which is of the zodiac at one of the church entrances.

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

I should add, imo, Mahony has given us his entire, heretical playbook laid out in this church. Nothing is a mistake in this building. Everything has meaning.

[kstewskis]

The dog or wolf ready to devour the sheep is my personal favorite.

It sure doesn't look like a border collie, or other sheep dog!

Thanks again for directing me to this link.

[ultima ratio]

The word "authoritative" covers a multitude of sins. How authoritative are the declarations of a pastoral council which deliberately declined to define any doctrine as binding on the faithful? How authoritative is a motu proprio letter when it contradicts Canon Law? How authoritative are either when they contradict previous popes and councils? There are levels and levels. On top of all is Divine Law--to do good and avoid evil, especially evils which might harm the faith--something Lefebvre understood better than JPII.

As for "Rome"--it is another term used to designate the Vatican institution we call the "Holy See." This is a human institution comprised of a collection of men who run a vast bureaucracy, some of whom are true Catholics, some of whom are not--men like Cardinal Kasper who doubts the historicity of the Resurrection, for instance. So it can be truly said that Rome--or the Holy See--is no longer fully Catholic, strange as this sounds to most Catholics. But it reflects the true situation.

This had not always been the case. Before Vatican II, the Holy See and the Catholic Church were so intimately identified that their union seemed absolute. This is no longer the case. The Holy See is now a very doubtful source of authority. Far more reliable are the teachings of tradition--the doctrines proclaimed tirelessly for centuries by preconciliar popes and councils. These have far more authoritative heft than declarations by today's "Rome" which seem to vary with the weather.

[ultima ratio]

You need to check canons 1323 and 1324. If I don't cite these, it is because this has been hashed and rehashed on this site for two years. Both canons pertain to the "state of necessity" evoked by Archbishop Lefebvre. The first states that a person who violates a law out of necessity is not subject to a penalty (1983 Code of Canon Law, canon 1323, §4).

And this would be true even if there were no state of necessity--if one inculpably thought there was. He would not incur the penalty under such circumstances.(canon 1323, 70)

But the second canon goes further. Even if one CULPABLY thought there was a state of necessity, he would still incur no automatic penalties (canon 1324, §3; §1, 80).

The motu proprio of JPII omits any mention of these canons--as if they did not exist, though they were the reasons given for disobedience by the Archbishop. Clearly the Pontiff had a blind spot.

[ultima ratio]

This post is a lot of nonsense. It indicates you know nothing about either the traditionalist movement or the SSPX. Catholics have the right to a FULLY Catholic sacramental parish life, not the quasi-Protestant charade that is pushed by most Novus Ordo bishops. If they won't give it to us, we will nourish our children in the faith by other means. Thank God for the SSPX.

[ultima ratio]

Do you think you alone have "theological training"? Don't make me laugh. Show a little more humility please. Others here have degrees and background, some considerably more than you.

[Mershon]

It really doesn't matter what the so-called traditionalists say on this forum. What matters is what the Church teaches. Vatican I and Vatican II in Lumen Gentium 25 make that clear. If you are not attached to the local ordinary (Bishop of Charlotte) who is attached to Rome, then you will not be in full communion with the one, true Church of Jesus Christ, outside of which, there is no salvation. Period. Everyone's opinions on this board notwithstanding.

[Mershon]

"You either recognize his authority--or you don't"

You recognize and OBEY. Even Satan recognizes who Jesus Christ is and knows the Sacred Scriptures.

"Hey Dad!" my son says. "I recognize your authority as my father, but I an not going to do what you ask me to do, or anything you tell me to."

Me: "OK, son. Just as long as you recognize my authority. OK."

[Mershon]

You can e-mail me at bcmershon@juno.com. Saturday Masses are at 8 a.m.

Traditional Latin Mass is the second and third Sunday of every month, and every Monday at 6 p.m. in May, excluding Memorial Day. Confession is 4-5 on Saturday or after any daily Mass if you request it from the Priest.

I would be interested if the SSPX chapel in Charlotte offers daily Mass and access to other services that "complete parishes" offer.

[Mershon]

"The invitation is rescinded. We don't need that poison in our growing and evangelical traddie community. We need people who will attract others to the Faith when fighting aginst the fundies--NOT people to drive them away."

I sincerely apologize if I offended you.

BCM: Didn't offend me in the least. I am, however, thinking of our other parishioners and new converts.

The church was obviously designed with the Novus ordo and modernism in mind.

BCM: Now there is a theological sound statement. Where in Pascendi does it speak about Prince of Peace church in Taylors being designed as a "modernist" church? Since the altar is accessible for offering Holy Mass facing the people or ad orientem, it was actually a Novus Ordo parish, but with the TLM in mind to make it accessible for it.

Why are there pillows on the floor of the sanctuary?

For the bells. I have seen these at many churches, including two traditional Latin Mass parishes. Perhaps you don't get out much.

Look at the crucifix - Why does the corpus look more like a hula dancer?

And this bears a response? Have you ever seen Eastern-rite icons before? Got any familiarity with the Eastern-rite Catholic Church. Quite traditional, I might add.

I have been in your position….spiritually starved.

BCM: Nope, I'm not. Read the article. We are growing, attracting converts. Have two or three college-age guys going to Rockford's Latin Mass Conference (Rockford, IL) in mid-May. They are all seriously considering FSSP or ICKSP. Converts as well.

I can see why a twice-a-month Sunday Tridentine Mass is so appealing, but it’s only a snack.

BCM: Because are soon going to have a weekly, plus periodic days during the week. You have that in Charlotte? Weekly TLMs? Do you?

Why discourage royalcello from attending the SSPX chapel which is a spiritual banquet of tradition with two Sunday Masses every week of the year, all the sacraments, catechism, public processions and devotions, traditional sermons, etc?

BCM: Public processions and devotions are great. So are all the other things you describe. However, I can licitly attend the Greek or Coptic Orthodox churches in Greenville (much closer), fulfill my Sunday obligation, and have the same thing. Why drive to Charlotte to attend a church in an "irregular" situation? No daily TLM though, do you?

[Mershon]

I'm not a canon lawyer. Neither or you. Even if you were, your personal opinion would not mean anything in comparison to what has been stated in Ecclesia Dei Adflicta. The Pope is the final arbiter of Canon Law. If you think the Pope is "less than Catholic" or unorthodox, then it is up to you to show where he has contradicted dogma or doctrine. If he has, then you and I are both in the same situation because then the See is vacant and the sedes are right. The sede position is actually much more logical than the SSPX or SSPX adherents' positions. You guys are good canon law apologists though. Once again, I am confused. Do you use the 1917 code or the 1983 code of canon law?

[Mershon]

Has your bishop guaranteed the Mass in Greenville for any period of time or is the FSSP operating on a week-to-week basis?

Has yours? Father Brovey is the director of Worship and Prayer for the Diocese of Charleston. Stella Maris has a weekly traditional Latin Mass (in Sullivans Island), with first Friday TLM as well. We will soon, God willing, have a weekly TLM, with at least one TLM during the week as well.

Why has your diocese lost two of its best priests to the SSPX in the last 18 months?

I know of Fr. Danel. Actually, Fr. Danel is not an SSPX priest. He is merely serving at their chapels. Who would the other one be?

Why did Bishop Baker’s rising star Fr. Christopher Danel leave the Charleston diocese for the SSPX?

Father Danel has spelled this out clearly in the Angelus Press book. Have you read it? I have. I do not try to drive others toward scandal, nor take scandal myself, as it is sinful. Have you read traditional moral theology?

If you don’t like the SSPX then don’t attend.

I never said "I don't like SSPX." I make distinctions. You and many of the "adherents" do not.

Our Masses don’t get yanked from us.

This is so nice that you get your way all the time.

We don’t have to move around the country chasing after good priests not knowing from week to week whether they will be allowed to say the Mass which was guaranteed to them in perpetuity.

Really? You mean you don't have people driving quite long distances to go to your chapel? Mableton, GA does. I wonder why people drive long distances to go there, and it is growing rapidly?

We don’t have to compromise our Catholic beliefs and traditions for fear that we will be seen as troublemakers.

Not fearing anything. You have no idea what kind of slander and detraction is spread about us within the diocese and parishioners. Frankly, as long as I'm with my bishop and pastor, and they are with me, I could care less if anyone thinks I'm a troublemaker.

You have a standing, open invitation to assist at the Mass of all time, on a weekly basis, an hour and a half up the road - an invitation that won't be rescinded.

Thanks. I have thought about coming up there on several occasions, but there is a Maronite-rite Divine Liturgy in Greenville to attend on the off Sundays. Perhaps sometime I will come up there incognito. Actually, Father Brovey said he would like to attend sometime. I'm not interested in being "proselytized" however. How many converts entered your church on Easter?

We have evangelical traddie Catholics in Greenville--and in union with our local ordinary and with the Pope!

[royalcello]

It sounds like you have a steadily improving situation in South Carolina, and I congratulate you for that. I will have to try to visit the TLM in Taylors. However, please understand that the Latin mass has been at the very center of my interest in Catholicism from the very beginning and I will not compromise on this issue. I know what the typical AmChurch English Novus Ordo mass is like and have no interest in attending it, ever.

I view the Traditional Latin Mass, the mass of Palestrina and Bach (like me, a non-Catholic), as part of the foundation of Western Civilization. I view the abandonment of Latin/chant/polyphony and the other post-V2 changes as a lamentable surrender to the egalitarian, democratic, anti-intellectual, anti-Western spirit of our age, and as part of the de-Europeanization of American culture and religion. Therefore as an unreconstructed Eurocentric reactionary monarchist I can have nothing to do with the Novus Ordo, although I might make an exception for a Latin N.O. as celebrated at St. Agnes Church in St. Paul, MN. However, I am not moving to Minnesota, I am not moving to South Carolina; I am moving to North Carolina, where the SSPX remains the only option for those desiring to attend a Latin mass.