Our Sunday Vistor: "No one ever goes to Hell who has been truly loved by another"

Crux News ^ | April 24, 2004

[1 spark]

Here's an exerpt from the link i just posted. The first part might be a bit tedious to get through.

"Evil in man is hell in him, for it is the same thing whether you say evil or hell. And since man is the cause of his own evil he is led into hell, not by the Lord but by himself. For so far is the Lord from leading man into hell that it is He who delivers man from hell, and this He does so far as man does not will and love to be in his own evil. All of man's will and love continues with him after death (n. 470-484). He who wills and loves evil in the world wills and loves the same evil in the other life, but he no longer suffers himself to be withdrawn from it. If,therefore, a man is in evil he is tied to hell, and in respect to his spirit is actually there, and after death desires nothing so much as to be where his evil is; consequently it is man who casts himself into hell after death, and not the Lord. "

[1 spark]

Yep. And here's more vintage Swedenborg.

"All this makes clear that the Lord draws every spirit to Himself by means of angels and by means of influx from heaven; but those spirits that are in evil completely resist, and as it were tear themselves away from the Lord, and are drawn by their own evil, thus by hell, as if by a rope. And as they are so drawn, and by reason of their love of evil are eager to follow, it is evident that they themselves cast themselves into hell by their own free choice. Men in the world because of their idea of hell are unable to believe that this is so. In fact, in the other life before the eyes of those who are outside of hell it does not so appear; but only so to those who cast themselves into hell, for such enter of their own accord. Those who enter from a burning love of evil appear to be cast headlong, with the head downwards and the feet upwards. It is because of this appearance that they seem to be cast into hell by Divine power. (But about this more will be said below, n. 574.) > From all this it can be seen that the Lord casts no one into hell, but every one casts himself into hell, both while he is living in the world and also after death when he comes among spirits."

BTW- Helen Keller was a follower of Swedenborg's teachings. ( half expecting deaf, dumb, blind jokes now from the judgement committee)

[broadsword]

But, it seems to be a parlor game in trad circles to morbidly speculate who might be there.

I believe you are too smart to believe this crap you posted, so I must conclude that it is a lie, plain and simple.

NOBODY did what you accuse them of. They simply rejected an obvious heresy. But the heresy is of the new-age, modernist, psychobabble flavor, so you are offended by our rejection of that favored heresy.

You out yourself, once again.

[broadsword]

Nonsense. Satan can deceive the stupid as well as the intelligent.

ROTFLMAO!

[broadsword]

If there's anybody in hell,

He has danced along the edge of this heresy, singing its merits all along without directly admitting it, for a long time.

But I think some things make themselves clear.

[broadsword]

There is no infallible doctrinal definition that there are souls in hell. None.

...so screw the entire Bible and 2,000 years of Church teaching to the contrary of what you want. Just follow the new Anything-goes Gospel of Sinkspur! (I don't think God redefines reality according to your loopy liberal whims and heresies, sinkspur.)

I shudder when I read your claims of teaching Catholic youngsters. I shudder and I pray for a shepherd to protect the lambs.

[D-fendr]

Perhaps it would further the discussion to take the priest's place.

A mother writes:

"My 25-year-old son was recently killed in a motorcycle accident. He was a very good man and a good son, and he had a lot of integrity. However, he was an agnostic…. Now, I worry about his salvation. I want to believe he is with God or at least in purgatory…. Should I worry that he might be in hell?"

What would you reply?

[broadsword]

If I may reply to this:

Rather than teaching her a ridiculous heresy, I would tell her that God is infinite in justice, but likewise infinite in Love and mercy, and that she should fervently pray for the soul of her son and hope in the divine providence of Him Who loved every one of us enough to die for that cause.

There is no excuse for teaching lies about God or misleading the innocent. Nothing good can come from such an evil.

[D-fendr]

Thank you, that's a lot better than what I could have come up with in the same short time. Very good.

I see your point too.

I think I would go with your reply. I wonder if others would agree, or if some would think "infinite in Love and mercy" is inferring the same result for her son as the priest did - albeit more subtly and as a result of God's love and mercy rather than the mom's.

Which brings us to the off topic question of what God's "infinite love and mercy" means. Perhaps for another thread.

thanks very much for your reply.

[broadsword]

...question of what God's "infinite love and mercy" means.

By our very natures, as finite creatures, this in an impossible thing for us to understand. But it is good to come to terms with the mystery in our understanding of our lack of understanding.

The finite cannot hope to apprehend the infinite. We even have to speak of it in a negative, for it is the opposite of everything we have any hope of understanding.

[dsc]

"Which brings us to the off topic question of what God's "infinite love and mercy" means."

"By our very natures, as finite creatures, this in an impossible thing for us to understand. But it is good to come to terms with the mystery in our understanding of our lack of understanding."

I just want to speculate: if her son was baptised, could her prayers not influence him toward Purgatory rather than Hell, even though he died unshriven?

We can turn away from Our Lord after baptism, but because He sometimes comes looking for us even when we are sunk in sin, I think He still regards us as His somehow.

[broadsword]

I'm a simple guy, sir. When it comes to questions of an infinite nature, I just do my dual job to love God with all my mind, heart and soul, and love my neighbor as myself. I leave the infinite questions for Him. And I often pray for things, but end the prayers with, "...Your will be done, Lord, not mine, and especially not sinkspur's!"

LOL! I thought you might enjoy that. It's a simple man's prayer, and a safe one to be sure.

[D-fendr]

Very well put, thank you. And the humility of our finiteness improves our right relationship with God and our brothers.

Yes, "The finite cannot hope to apprehend the infinite." Our imaginings of life after death are also bounded by our current finite existence and experience.

I would add a slight parenthetical on the definition of "mystery" however.

I think, or it's been my experience, that while we cannot hope to comprehend what we Catholics call mysteries fully, we can increase our knowledge of them. I think this occurs as we are transformed by Christ.

So I would define mystery, used in our context, as "that which we can never know fully in this existence but about which we can know more within the limitations of our existence."

This, I think, is the often the result of spiritual practice of some kinds (for example meditations on praying the Rosay), for those who are thus inclined.

Always remembering that we are finite before the infinite God.

thanks again for your post..

[broadsword]

Well put, my friend. that is a lot for me to think about. (Now see what you have caused! LOL!) I have to say that the deepest understandings I come to--those that cannot be put into human words, as is most often the case with things that are spiritually deep--have been those thing I learned while visiting the Blessed Sacrament in silence. I believe that there He speaks to our souls with a power not bounded by the coarse limitations of physical words. Such quiet discipleship is an acquired way that deepens and graces with time spent in love. I cannot recommend it highly enough. A beautiful woman taught me this, and I could not ever thank her enough, even if I were to give my life up for her.

God bless my surrogate mother.

[dsc]

"I believe that there He speaks to our souls with a power not bounded by the coarse limitations of physical words."

Astounding things can happen when you're praying in front of the Blessed Sacrament.

Hmmm...I wonder if one got a protestant or a pagan to join him...

[miltonim]

I'd need all my fingers and toes, and my wife's fingers and toes, and the fingers and toes of my two boys and...

lol

[broadsword]

"Hmmm...I wonder if one got a protestant or a pagan to join him..."

That is how my friends and I have led so many into the Church. We bring them to Him, and in silence, He takes them in. My (adopted) mother says the finite creature cannot get close to the Infinite without being changed.

Sometimes, you carry Him to them. This you do when you have just received Him in Communion. Be close, then, to the person, and be there in faith inspired by the infinitude of His grace within you at that time. Then, step back and watch, my friend, for miracles will happen, even if our human eyes are too finite to see them.

Peace, brother. I have to go to bed. It's 0152hrs here.

P.S. sinkspur sucks! (I just though I would mention that. LOL!)

[broadsword]

Darn it! That was supposed to be a private reply. See what happens when I stay up too late for my own good? Sorry, sinkspur... Well, a LITTLE sorry anyway. LOL!

[Jmouse007]

The "priest's answer is totally unscriptural, he does not know what he is talking about. As for your question, here you go, though you probably will not like the answer, it is biblically sound.

A mother writes:

"My 25-year-old son was recently killed in a motorcycle accident. He was a very good man and a good son, and he had a lot of integrity. However, he was an agnostic…. Now, I worry about his salvation. I want to believe he is with God or at least in purgatory…. Should I worry that he might be in hell?"

What would you reply?

Dear Grieving Mother,

I am sorry for your loss, it is never easy to lose a beloved son.

Before answering your question, it is important for you to realize that you are not responsible for the spiritual decisions (or lack thereof) on the part of your son.

You stated that your son was "a very good man, a good son and had a lot of integrity". Unfortunately, in the eyes of a holy God, this is a totally insufficient basis upon gaining entrance into heaven. From God's perspective, no matter how "good" we may be in our own or in the eyes of others, God's holy word makes it clear that in His eyes,

"There is none righteous, not even one; there is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God; all have turned aside, together they have become useless; there is none who does good, there is not even one." (Romans 3:10 - 12)

God says none of us are righteous in and of ourselves and that, while we may, from our perspective do "good things," in the eyes of God: "there is none who does good, there is not even one." Besides all of this, according to the word of God, it is impossible for anyone to gain entrance into heaven based upon our righteousness or upon "doing good" or by keeping the Law:

..."by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin." (Romans 3:20)

Galatians 2:16 makes it clear that "a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus."

According to Luke 16:19 - 31, Jesus Himself, in describing life on the other side of the grave makes it crystal clear that there is no purgatory; where one can "work off his sins and cross over into heaven." Jesus says there are only two destinations available upon death, one is a place of blessing, the other a place of flame and unspeakable torment. He also clearly states that once there, no one can "cross over":

"between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you WILL NOT BE ABLE, and that NONE MAY CROSS OVER from there to us." (Luke 16:26 - 31 Emphasis mine)

God did provide a way for your son to avoid hell and enter heaven and that way was by accepting the Lord Jesus Christ as his personal savior.

The payment for your son's sins was made upon the cross of Calvary, Jesus said:

"I am the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father except through me." (John 14:6)

He also said; "unless you believe that I am He (i.e. your messiah/savior) you shall die in your sins." (John 8:24)

God's word says: "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved" (Acts 16:20)

We must put our faith in Christ in order to be delivered from our sin and gain entrance into heaven because "there is salvation in no one else; for there is NO OTHER NAME under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved." (Acts 4:12 Emphasis mine)

Grieving Mother, there is no easy way to say this but it is the truth. While your son was an agnostic, I am sure within his lifetime of 25 years, he heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ and had the opportunity to accept Jesus as his personal savior. If he did not do this, then God had no alternative but to send him to hell. That was not your fault, but His choice. It is not God's will for you to worry about this because there is nothing we can do about the eternal destination of our loved ones after they have died. God's will is that you come to receive Christ as your personal savior so that you may dwell with him. The provision has been made on the cross of Calvary, what will your decision be?

Humbly yours,

Dr. S

[AAABEST]

So you're arguing that you're too stupid to be evil?