Brigham Young on the Insufficiency of the Blood of Christ

Deseret News; JOD Vol 4, pp 53-54 | 1856 | Brigham Young

[ksen]

"There are sins that men commit for which they cannot receive forgiveness in this world, or in that which is to come, and if they had their eyes open to see their true condition, they would be perfectly willing to have their blood spilt upon the ground, that the smoke thereof might ascend to heaven as an offering for their sins; and the smoking incense would atone for their sins, whereas, if such is not the case, they will stick to them and remain upon them in the spirit world. "I know, when you hear my brethren telling about cutting people off from the earth, that you consider it is strong doctrine; but it is to save them, not to destroy them....

"And further more, I know that there are transgressors, who, if they knew themselves, and the only condition upon which they can obtain forgiveness, would beg of their brethren to shed their blood, that the smoke thereof might ascend to God as an offering to appease the wrath that is kindled against them, and that the law might have its course. I will say further; I have had men come to me and offer their lives to atone for their sins.

"It is true that the blood of the Son of God was shed for sins through the fall and those committed by men, yet men can commit sins which it can never remit.... There are sins that can be atoned for by an offering upon an altar, as in ancient days; and there are sins that the blood of a lamb, or a calf, or of turtle dove, cannot remit, but they must be atoned for by the blood of the man." (Sermon by Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 4, pages 53-54); also published in the Mormon Church's Deseret News, 1856, page 235)

[ladyinred]

Genesis 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

Judging by the answer my Mormon friend gave me, I take it you believe literal blood shedding must take place, not just the death penalty. That is what I gather from her reply to me, and reading what you wrote at least. That is why Utah has the firing squad according to my friend. Do you agree?

[ladyinred]

BTW, I have used the term may in some of my responses merely to avoid the dogmatism that permeates most of the anti-mormon threads on FR

Anti Morman, Anti Calvinist, Anti Baptist, Anti Catholic, Anti Free Will, Anti Jewish, etc etc etc. It seems to be contagious around here!

I hope I didn't miss anyone!:-)

[Alex Murphy]

I hope I didn't miss anyone!:-)

I'm most emphatically Anti-Moloch myself. Although I've never had anyone claim to be Pro-Moloch, I have had people tell me my Anti-Moloch posts were offensive to them!

[drstevej]

***Anti Morman, Anti Calvinist, Anti Baptist, Anti Catholic, Anti Free Will, Anti Jewish, etc etc etc. It seems to be contagious around here!

I hope I didn't miss anyone!:-)
***

Anti Oakeley
Anti Bellum
Anti Jemima
Little Orphan Anti

[restornu]

Utah eliminates firing squad executions

March 17, 2004

SALT LAKE CITY, Utah (AP) -- Gov. Olene Walker has done away with firing squads in Utah, leaving injection as the only method for executing condemned killers.

The Utah Legislature passed the measure late last month, and Walker had said she intended to sign it. She did so Monday without comment.

Lawmakers have said the elimination of firing squads will deny killers the chance to go out in a blaze of glory. Despite the measure's passage, the state will make allowance for four death row inmates who have already chosen to die in a hail of bullets.

Since the Supreme Court reinstated capital punishment in 1976, two people in the United States have died by firing squad, both in Utah: Gary Gilmore in 1977 and John Albert Taylor in 1996. Taylor's execution drew more than 150 TV crews from around the world.

A relic of its territorial days, Utah's firing squads employ five riflemen, one of whom shoots a blank so that none will know who fired the lethal shots.

Idaho and Oklahoma retain the firing squad on their books but have not used it in modern times.

http://cnn.law.printthis.clickability.com/pt/cpt?action=cpt&title=CNN.com+-+Utah+eliminates+firing+squad+executions+-+Mar+17%2C+2004&expire=&urlID=9680953&fb=Y&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnn.com%2F2004%2FLAW%2F03%2F17%2Ffiring.squads.ap%2F&partnerID=2013

[ladyinred]

LOL! Darn, I knew I forgot a few anti's! :-)

[ladyinred]

Oh no! Now you've done it! The Pro Moloch's will be here any minute now pinging the mods! :-)

[ladyinred]

Thanks for the update about the firing squads. Now we know that isn't an option anymore in Utah.

[White Mountain]

Your #141: Judging by the answer my Mormon friend gave me, I take it you believe literal blood shedding must take place, not just the death penalty. That is what I gather from her reply to me, and reading what you wrote at least. That is why Utah has the firing squad according to my friend. Do you agree?

The LDS Scriptures are what we believe, and Genesis 9:6 is of course included. So if I were a legislator voting on a death penalty issue, what the Lord says on the subject, through prophets both ancient and modern, would be uppermost in my mind as I prayerfully made my decision, after exchanging views with the constituents I represent, and debating with my fellow legislators. But I would only have one vote.

If I were a bishop counselling a death-row inmate who asked me what manner of execution he should request, I would then be in a position to ask our Church leaders for their input on the matter.

Since I have not studied the issue in any depth, I think I will leave it at that.

[Auntie Dem]

You've said a couple times a murderer can't repent. Why not?

No, I asked HOW does a murderer repent? No one, you included, seems to know.

[D Edmund Joaquin]

Genesis, Chapter 4. Cain could have repented before the Lord, but he chose to go out instead from the Lord's presence. Therefore, repenting of murder is an actof repentancelike any other, not the crime, but the repenting is the important thing.

[Auntie Dem]

With what authority do you speak for the Church?

I never claimed any authority to speak for the Church, I would provide evidence discovered by non-Mormon archaeologists which would prove to any reasonably open-minded person (that would apparently exclude you), that many things mentioned in the Book of Mormon have been discovered which cannot be explained away by coincidence or lucky guesses by Joseph Smith.

And you will have to do better than the tired old response that Michael Coe provided in 1973.

Which brings us to exactly what would constitute "proof" to a sign-seeker like you? Perhaps a stone carving in Hebrew which says "Now entering city limits of Zarahemla"?

How about a carving of a fully bearded noble (the Mayans did not have beards) being conquered by a Mayan King whose name is given in the Book of Mormon, and dating to the exact time period of the final battles described in the Book of Mormon? The names of several cities and Kings...a-h-h-h-h, I'm giving away too much in the teaser....

[Cvengr]

How does a murderer repent? By rejecting any thoughts which lead him to think about murdering his fellow man and instead turning to God and remaining faithful to Him. Simple.

[Cvengr]

Hmmm,Essay Question:

RC Priest, Father Shawn O'Malley recently became the Chaplain for a prison in Utah. Upon reviewing the inmate's files, he discovers a Mormon, Bill Muckemover, on Death Row soon to be executed by Firing Squad.

Father O'Malley, recognizing and firmly believing the sinner must confess his sins prior to the first death to avoid damnation, approaches Bill to offer confession and last rites. Shawn recognizes Bill from their early childhood education by the Catholic nuns back in Boston and how they both had once passed catechism, but now Bill is a staunch Mormon.

Bill is very remorseful, carefully considering every known sin and unknown sin over his worldly days and obliges the priest in confession, but then stipulates he must be executed by firing squad, because the blood of Christ was insufficient to cleanse his sin of murder. Instead, being faithful to God, Bill insists he must be shot, in order to meet God's demands for his entrance to heaven. Other than that, the good Father is unable to discern Bill from even his Bishops in his piety.

However, Shawn now watching the firing squad assemble, recognizes the shooters as all Masonic leaning, paganistic Mormons who practised the occult. Shawn, recognizes that if Bill is shot while in the act of a sin, his last rites and confession have not been sufficiently provided. Shawn reaches over and grabs the foreman's weapon and dispatches the firing squad before they realize what is happening.

In the haste of the situation, Bill grabs a rifle from the dead guard and holds Shawn at bay, insisting Shawn must shoot him for Bill to go to heaven. Furthermore, Bill being the only one left alive who witnessed the event insists he must kill Shawn otherwise nobody will believe what happened. Meanwhile, a wounded, not-dead-yet, guard gets off a fatal shot at Bill, who in turn discharges the rifle into Shawn resulting in both Shawn and Bill departing their bodies.

Question:

Which answer is their destination and justify the conclusion?

a) Bill goes to Hades, Shawn goes to Hades.
b) Bill goes to Hades, Shawn goes to heaven.
c) Bill goes to Heaven, Shawn goes to Hades.
d) Bill goes to Heaven, Shawn goes to Heaven.
e) Bill goes to the Great Salt lake, Shawn goes to Purgatory and neither know how to ski, but both have the big skilift ticket to the sky.

[drstevej]

I plead the fifth...

To plead the Fifth is to invoke the Fifth Amendment's protection that no person "shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself"--that is, to refuse to testify on the grounds that one's testimony might be taken (or mistaken ) as incriminating oneself. The expression is also used as a metaphor for refusal to comment on a suspicious or "incriminating" circumstance.
 

[Wrigley]

How does any sinner repent?

[restornu]

No, I asked HOW does a murderer repent? No one, you included, seems to know.

Some men like Cain who rebeled against God and King David had the Holy Spirit also and went against the light!

There are many souls that are aware of but lived a life on the fenced (they had not received a witness) and were lead or choose the wrong side!

So when one repents would it not depends on how much knowledge they were given or received and the intent of their heart and mind!

[Alex Murphy]

So then you've got a map that matches the cities named in the Book of Mormon to those found by archaeologists?

Oh wait, underneath all that bluster, you never said you actually had one. Or anybody else has one, for that matter. I wonder why I'm having no difficulty finding a map that matches up New Testament city locations with real world locations?

BTW, never heard of Michael Coe. Even if he asked the same question in 1973, it's still a valid question. Except that my question can now include the fact that the LDS Church, and all those Book-Of-Mormon-guided archaeologists have managed to let 31 years pass without producing one.

[Colofornian]

I never claimed any authority to speak for the Church

How is it that a church body sending out millions of missionary representatives doesn't have anybody going out speaking for it?

And, of course, that is the lie...we speak for our church body every day, whether it's officially & institutionally authoritatively bestowed or not.

The fact is that JoeSmith's cookie cutter version of Christianity makes the same mistake the Vatican makes by reducing the church to an institution.

The Greek for "Church" in the New Testament, which means "called-out ones"...ones=personal, not institutional. The Church is flesh & blood; not brick & mortar. The Church is a living organism--a Body--not an organization. The Church is the direct creation of Christ ("I will build my church"), not General Authorities appointed by mere men.

There is no such thing as "The Seventies" in Scripture. It was made up by the LDS Church.

[restornu]

There is no such thing as. "The Seventies" in Scripture. It was made up by the LDS Church. Colofornian

*****

THE GOSPEL ACCORDING TO ST LUKE

CHAPTER 10

. Jesus calls, empowers, and instructs the seventy—They preach and heal—Those who receive his disciples receive Christ—The Father is revealed by the Son—Jesus gives the parable of the good Samaritan.

1 AFTER these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.

2 Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest.

3 Go your ways: behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves.