Posted on 04/21/2004 4:32:43 AM PDT by ksen
"There are sins that men commit for which they cannot receive forgiveness in this world, or in that which is to come, and if they had their eyes open to see their true condition, they would be perfectly willing to have their blood spilt upon the ground, that the smoke thereof might ascend to heaven as an offering for their sins; and the smoking incense would atone for their sins, whereas, if such is not the case, they will stick to them and remain upon them in the spirit world. "I know, when you hear my brethren telling about cutting people off from the earth, that you consider it is strong doctrine; but it is to save them, not to destroy them....
"And further more, I know that there are transgressors, who, if they knew themselves, and the only condition upon which they can obtain forgiveness, would beg of their brethren to shed their blood, that the smoke thereof might ascend to God as an offering to appease the wrath that is kindled against them, and that the law might have its course. I will say further; I have had men come to me and offer their lives to atone for their sins.
"It is true that the blood of the Son of God was shed for sins through the fall and those committed by men, yet men can commit sins which it can never remit.... There are sins that can be atoned for by an offering upon an altar, as in ancient days; and there are sins that the blood of a lamb, or a calf, or of turtle dove, cannot remit, but they must be atoned for by the blood of the man." (Sermon by Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 4, pages 53-54); also published in the Mormon Church's Deseret News, 1856, page 235)
Maybe the Mormon Name Generator ticked them off. If so, then these mods have no sense of humor.
Sorry, late reading the reponses on this thread. I will ask her and get back to you. BTW: I am not a Mormon, just posting what she said after reading this post to her, in case you didn't know that.
The quote actually reads: yet men can commit sins which it can never remit
This would be due to the justice of God, because God is a just God as well as a merciful God, not because of a supposed insufficiency or incapacity or limited ability that you would like to read into the quote.
It means that there are sins so serious that God will not forgive, even after repentance, thus because of the demands of justice the offender is not delivered from hell and must suffer for his own sins. Such is the case with King David, because of the murder of Uriah. But mercy will have its day. King David obtained a promise that his soul would not be left in hell (Psalm 16:10). He was not resurrected with the saints at Christ's resurrection -- we know that from Acts 2:29 -- but he will be resurrected in the resurrection of the unjust.
Brigham Young knew and taught the omnipotence of God and the infinite nature of His atonement.
Even after such repentance and contrition as a murderer can show, since he cannot restore the life he has taken.
I guess you don't like the use of the word "atonement" for voluntarily paying the penalty that the law of God demands, and then leaving it in the hands of God.
Genesis 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
Such a penalty is also found in the Alma 34 passage in my #55.
"Paradise" occurs three times in the KJV, with three different meanings. The first is the one you refer to. Jesus said this to the thief who was crucified with Him (who was not accused of a crime so great that he could not obtain forgiveness). He was telling the thief that death is not the end -- though the physical body dies, the spirit lives on, and they would both be in the world of spirits that day after they died. Jesus wasn't promising the thief instant everything. So here is paradise in the sense of "spirit world", in the sense of the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31):
Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Here is paradise in the sense of the "third heaven" (see verse 2 in that chapter):
2 Corinthians 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
And here is paradise in the sense of the Garden of Eden:
Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which is defined below:
Book of Mormon, Alma 39:3-9
3 And this is not all, my son. Thou didst do that which was grievous unto me; for thou didst forsake the ministry, and did go over into the land of Siron among the borders of the Lamanites, after the harlot Isabel.
4 Yea, she did steal away the hearts of many; but this was no excuse for thee, my son. Thou shouldst have tended to the ministry wherewith thou wast entrusted.
5 Know ye not, my son, that these things [adulteries] are an abomination in the sight of the Lord; yea, most abominable above all sins save it be the shedding of innocent blood or denying the Holy Ghost?
6 For behold, if ye deny the Holy Ghost when it once has had place in you, and ye know that ye deny it, behold, this is a sin which is unpardonable; yea, and whosoever murdereth against the light and knowledge of God, it is not easy for him to obtain forgiveness; yea, I say unto you, my son, that it is not easy for him to obtain a forgiveness.
7 And now, my son, I would to God that ye had not been guilty of so great a crime. I would not dwell upon your crimes, to harrow up your soul, if it were not for your good.
8 But behold, ye cannot hide your crimes from God; and except ye repent they will stand as a testimony against you at the last day.
9 Now my son, I would that ye should repent and forsake your sins, and go no more after the lusts of your eyes, but cross yourself in all these things; for except ye do this ye can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God. Oh, remember, and take it upon you, and cross yourself in these things.
D&C 132:27 The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood, and assent unto my death, after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant, saith the Lord God; and he that abideth not this law can in nowise enter into my glory, but shall be damned, saith the Lord.
Meaning "may" have changed; he (BY) "may not have meant to" confuse. Lots of speculation there to re interpret what BY said and taught. I suppose you see the problem with BY's teaching that you need to hope that BY didn't mean what he said.
Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions.
What about if someone reveals the Temple ceremonies? Is that a crime which the Blood of Christ will not remit and the person must pay the price with their own blood?
Jesus Christ is my Redeemer, my Savior and my Judge.
For any other questions regarding this matter, please refer back to this post.
For starters in regard to this topic (as with just about most of the topics that get rehashed over and over here and elsewhere on the Net), the FAIR Topical Guide has a section on this topic: Blood Atonement
Also, try searching FARMS: For example, a search using the string of blood atonement.
(NOTE: Many of the FARMS articles can be viewed without signing up by clicking on "Continue to article without a log in.")
And I myself find it troubling that, in the guise of offering resources to understand what the official positions of the LDS are, you would point the readers to two websites - "FAIR" and "FARMS" - that have rather interesting disclaimers. As you well know, without recognition from the proper LDS authorities that the site contents are official or revealed positions, these websites offer nothing more than idle speculation.
And the websites themselves admit they carry no authority from, or acceptance by, the LDS church whatsoever...
on the FARMS website, found in the paragraph immediately preceding the section "A Characteristic Approach to Scripture Study":
"Nevertheless, such work represents only the views of individual scholars and writers and in no way is meant or intended to represent the position of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Brigham Young University, or the Institute."
and on the FAIR website, found at the bottom of their home page:
"FAIR is not owned, controlled by or affiliated with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. All research and opinions provided on this site are the sole responsibility of FAIR, and should not be interpreted as official statements of LDS doctrine, belief or practice."
If you are a True Christian you would NOT neither!
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