Replies

Mark 1 Eyeball. Jasut *look* at the thing, in it's totality. The front and rear views of the legs don't match up, for starters.

Have you read the paper I linked in Reply #164. I think you will find that your Mark 1 eyeball does not quite agree with the studies of actual bodies and cloths of equal dimensions..

Let's Eyeball it:

Studies that have been done using cadavers and live volunteers covered with chalk, laid on a shroud, assuming the positon of a man in rigor mortis pattern from a crucifixion, have always resulted in the exact same pattern as seen on the Shroud. There is no discrepency when one considers the flow of the cloth over the body.

Well... which is it? If you think that the shroud is too big of a task for a medieval fraudster, how about making a seventh-century Sudarium fraud that so closely matches to "125 points of congruence" with the shroud?

Why, and HOW? If, as you maintain, the Shroud was a 14th Century fraud, how and WHY would a forger create his masterpiece to conform to a little known, wrinkled, blood stained cloth in a church a thousand miles away? Or, if the Sudarium is a fraud (with a known provenance well before the provenance of the Shroud) how could it have been created with those 125 points of congruence 700 years before the shroud?.

We really do not know that the sudarium is 7th century. The only evidence we have of any C14 test on the sudarium is third hand hearsay.

If they are linked, and the date IS correct, then perhaps the shroud and the sudarium were created at the same time... which may cause more problems with the C14 date of the Shroud patches.

Thanks for posting the shroud images. They prove my points that it just looks... off. The hair is a real problem.

> If, as you maintain, the Shroud was a 14th Century fraud, how and WHY would a forger
create his masterpiece to conform to a little known, wrinkled, blood stained cloth in a church a thousand miles
away? Or, if the Sudarium is a fraud (with a known provenance well before the provenance of the Shroud)
how could it have been created with those 125 points of congruence 700 years before the shroud?.

Well, if y'all are right about the patches, then the shroud is looking like a 7th century fraud.

> Studies that have been done using cadavers and live volunteers covered with chalk, laid on a shroud, assuming the positon of a man in rigor mortis pattern from a crucifixion, have always resulted in the exact same pattern as seen on the Shroud.

I've seen experiments that show just the opposite. The bend in the legs being particularly difficult problem (and the fact that the man on the cloth is over six feet tall, IIRC... rather unlikely for the region and the time). But in any event... if you c an duplicate the shroud by wrappign it around a maniken or a body... you now are on the road to discovering how a fraud could be perpetrated.