Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

To: shroudie
> Amine/saccharide products will darken with age.

Well, then, that's a problem, isn't it, considering that 650 years ago, it was apparently pretty plainly visible. I've seen contemporary paintings of it (don't ask me where, it's been a few years), when it was folded up and only the face visible... and the face was *quite* visible.

> I am asking how the amine/saccharides product was produced by fraud.

Starting to look like amine/saccharides product does not explain it.

> I am always suspect of a single web based source that lacks any citations.

Indeed. But a bit more searching found several further references, including one PDF paper: http://www.shroud.com/heraseng.pdf
"It should be said that in our investigation we have found nothing to contradict this tradition, except the carbon 14 dating ordered by Prof. Baima Bollone. According to this experiment, the cloth dates from the 7th century. Baima Bollone himself says the result should not be given undue importance, but it is the first contrary information obtained."

It *appears* that they dated it and got answers they didn't like.

> You imply fraud. If you are to be considered seriously, you must present your fraud explanation.

Simple: "An artist made it. An artist was exposed and confessed." Now, it would certainly be interesting to know exactly how it was done, but it seems pretty plain to me that it was manmade, given all the quirks and flaws and mistakes (such as the hair hanging the wrong direction; such as the head appearing to be disconnected; such as the legs being straight on the front, and the knee being bent on the back... can't be both at the same time!). Hell, we don't know just how the Great Pyramid was built, but we know it was built by Men.
163 posted on 04/21/2004 1:57:49 PM PDT by orionblamblam
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 162 | View Replies ]


To: orionblamblam
Well, then, that's a problem, isn't it, considering that 650 years ago, it was apparently pretty plainly visible. I've seen contemporary paintings of it (don't ask me where, it's been a few years), when it was folded up and only the face visible... and the face was *quite* visible.

The only problem is that your assertion is not true. There are copies of the Shroud that were made in the past... before photography... some within a few years of the first exposition. The Czechia Shroud Copy is an example that was found in a church in Broumov, Czzechia.


The 1651 Czechia Shroud Copy
Photograph copyright 1999 by Dr. Leo Bazant-Hegemark, image linked from Shroud.com


Close up of the 1651 Czechia Shroud.Note inscription:
"EXTRACTVM AB ORIGINALI" (Derived from the Original)

Photograph copyright 1999 by Dr. Leo Bazant-Hegemark, image linked from Shroud.com

Dr. Leo Bazant-Hegemark comments on the copy in his Report on the Czechia Shroud Copy:

The copy was found Jan. 18, 1999 by theol. scholar Premysl Sochor in the first balcony to the right in the monasterial church of Broumov, Czechia, hidden in a framed wooden box with a glass door, under the floor of the balcony (in a height of appr. 15m). With the linen was the authenticity, i.e., a letter of the archbishop of Turin, Bergiria, giving names, year and date (4 May 1651).

The artist who created this copy worked directly from the Shroud in Turin. It is obvious he was attempting to capture the evanescent, vaporish nature of the image on the Shroud. Dr. Bazant-Hegemark reports that the copy shows clear brush strokes and microscopic examination shows clear pigment particles. Negatives of the copy produce flat, unimpressive images that do not show a "positive" aspect. Of course, this copy is from 300 years after the first exposition in 1352.

A Shroud copy even closer in date, one that precedes the 1532 fire, is the Lier Shroud Copy... with a known provenance of 1516.


The 1516 Lier Shroud Copy
Photo linked from Imago Christi

The Imago Christi website gives a brief description of the Lier Copy:

A copy of the Shroud known as the "Lier Shroud" dated 1516 has at times been attributed to Albrecht Durer (1471-1528) and perhaps to the Flemish painter Bernard van Orley. This copy documents the fact that the Shroud has been through a fire at a time and in circumstances unknown, but certainly before the Chambery fire of 1532 -- it reproduces only the double mirror image series of little burn holes, visible in the Shroud today (shown in the photograph above). This copy (Lier Shroud) is located in Saint Gommaire Church of Lierre, Belgium."

Almost 150 years before the Czechia copy and 150 years after the original exposition of the Shroud, an artist attempts to capture the image on the Shroud in a dim, wispy painting that fails to duplicate the nature of the Shroud.

Here is another from 1624 by an artist not as skilled as the others, and possible a copy of a copy. Note the addition of a 'modesty cloth" around the loins:


167 posted on 04/22/2004 3:00:50 AM PDT by Swordmaker (This tagline shut down for renovations and repairs. Re-open June of 2001.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 163 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson