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To: Maximilian
Far from my first post on a Catholic thread.

My entire point is that the sharper the scalpel with which one goes into an argument, the better chances one has of getting to the truth. Not all rules and regulations are equal. So keeping the minutiae the same is not the same as the rule about teachers in a Catholic school not subverting the faith of their charges. You don't get back to essentials by going back to the Latin mass. You get back to essentials by getting back to essentials.

I agree that the mass is central to our worship and our religious life. I don't agree that arguments about whether it should be in Latin are a good use of our time.

And lastly, wasn't it Jesus who said you must be born again? I don't like the appellation "born-again Christian" because it implies that Catholics should not be born again. It somehow leaves us out of that important transformation.

Really last: I hate "Kumbayah."

56 posted on 04/07/2004 11:52:42 AM PDT by firebrand
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To: firebrand
So keeping the minutiae the same is not the same as the rule about teachers in a Catholic school not subverting the faith of their charges. You don't get back to essentials by going back to the Latin mass. You get back to essentials by getting back to essentials.

I guess we're not going to agree on this, but I think you should do some research about what has happened to the traditional Catholic Mass since the time of Vatican II. The Catholic Mass is not "minutiae." Even to suggest so is sacrilegious. The traditional Catholic Mass of all time which is offered in the Latin language IS "the essentials." It's the very definition of "essentials." It is the reason and purpose for our existence: to offer to God fitting adoration, reparation, thanksgiving and supplication.

If you're too angry about what Cardinal Egan is doing to this parish to think about any other issues, you should take a look at the recent threads about Cardinal Egan shutting down the National Shrine of St. Ann in Manhattan, the location where the indult Latin Mass is offered, so that he can sell the property to the US Post Office. You will see that his modus operandi is all of one piece.

My entire point is that the sharper the scalpel with which one goes into an argument, the better chances one has of getting to the truth. Not all rules and regulations are equal.

I agree with your line of thinking, but you may be getting the cause and effect backwards. As you say, if we want to be effective, we cannot afford to waste energy tilting at every windmill. So if we want to strike at the root of all the cancer in the Church, the root cause of the many crises we see surrounding us, from the breakdown of religious life, to the corruption of Catholic schools, to the scandals in the priesthood, to the lack of Mass attendance on Sunday, to the abandonment of sexual morality, where are we going to find the source of all these evils? The problems at this parish school are clearly just symptoms of a pervasive problem. So where is the root underlying cause? If you haven't thought that out, then you may not have a very good handle on which problems to attack first.

57 posted on 04/07/2004 12:18:03 PM PDT by Maximilian
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To: firebrand
I agree that the mass is central to our worship and our religious life. I don't agree that arguments about whether it should be in Latin are a good use of our time.

This is because you don't know enough of what you speak to know how drastically you're contratdicting yourself in the above statement.

Nevermind the rampant liturgical absuses we read about every day. The Latin mass kept a global uniformity, purity of translation and integrity of worship that is impossible to do with all of the various vulgar vencacular masses. It was sacrificial, Christ centered and vertical. Not narcissistic, parishioner centered and horizontal.

How do we benefit through a less devotional mass or by angering God?

Really last: I hate "Kumbayah."

Not that it's a big issue or anything, but "Kumbayah" is a song of great sadness and soul. Although Jesus haters would have you believe that it was invented by suburbanite Christians sitting around a campfire, the truth is quite the opposite.

It originated from the American slaves singing to the Lord for their salvation.

The line "Kumbaya" is derived from "come by here" when they slanged it. They wanted the Lord to "come by here" and save them, and prayed so with an African/Blues melody.

If it's sung properly it's quite beautiful.

59 posted on 04/07/2004 12:54:51 PM PDT by AAABEST (<a href="http://www.angelqueen.org">Traditional Catholicism is Back and Growing</a>)
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