Worse than deja vu all over again: Vatican caves

The Remnant ^ | March 31, 2004 | Thomas Drolesky

[broadsword]

I doubt that Pope Leo XIII looks down and appreciates your inference, sir. Don't put our own intentions into his holy prayer for the Church.

[St.Chuck]

So John Kerry is safe.

You're the safe one. Two things you are safe to criticize on FR are Kerry and the Catholic Church.

[broadsword]

In all fairness, brother, what if I were to imply that the Pope wrote these words in reference to you: This wicked dragon pours out, as a most impure flood, the venom of his malice on men of depraved mind and corrupt heart, the spirit of lying, of impiety, of blasphemy...

Why don't you just say the prayer and hope in God's infinite wisdom and providence, without trying to slander the man He chose for Pope in these most difficult times for the Church?

I'm not trying to pick a fight with you. It's just that your post differs little from the classic Protestant "Whore of Babylon" blasphemy. Why don't you just let the Pope's prayer speak for itself.

[St.Chuck]

I don't get what you mean with the "whole cloth" term. What are you trying to say by that?

It was a reference to an earlier post. Sorry for any confusion. Maybe I shouldn't assume that everyone reads all the posts as if we were in a group having a discussion and it was permissible to respond to one post, but actually addressing a different poster.

I meant no ill will whatsoever and was being facetious to you in order to make a point with someone else. Mea culpa.

[gbcdoj]

The prayer is referring to the invasion of Rome by the Italian nationalists under Victor Emmanuel. It is not a prophecy, especially not of the Apostolic See becoming occupied by the Antichrist.

See Fr. Anthony Cekada's article Russia and the Leonine Prayers:

In 1934 a German writer, Father Bers, investigated the origins of the story of Leo’s vision. “Wherever one looks,” he observed, “one may find this claim — but nowhere a trace of proof.”...

• Writings which promote the story give no references to sources.
• The various accounts contradict each other as to where the vision supposedly took place — after Mass at the foot of the altar, or in a conference with cardinals.
• The various accounts are inconsistent about the date of the vision.
• The dates the accounts give for the alleged vision (1880, 1884 and 1888) do not correspond with the date when the St. Michael prayer was actually instituted (1886).
• There appears to be no corroboration for the story in a contemporary account which one would expect to have mentioned the event, had it indeed taken place.

These considerations all tend to support the conclusion Father Bers arrived at in the 1930s: “that the ‘vision’ had been invented in later times for some reason,” and that the story was simply feeding upon itself.

...

To sum up, then: The lengthy 1888 prayer to St. Michael was composed after the St. Michael prayer in the Leonine Prayers appeared. The passages in the 1888 text which are supposedly “prophetic” refer in fact to the Italian government’s seizure of Church property. Once the King of Italy appeared willing to arrive at a settlement of the Roman Question, the Vatican dropped from the prayer passages which he and the Italian government would have found offensive.

[St.Chuck]

You jam more distortions and illogical trash into a few paragraphs that anybody I have ever read. Sheesh! Who has time to respond to it all?

LOL. I thought you had already exhibited an otherworldy patience. Thanks for a good post.

[GirlShortstop]

58 posted on 04/04/2004 4:08:18 PM EDT by nika

AWESOME job nika, thank you.

Ping for a good read FRiends.

[BlackElk]

Welcome back!

[broadsword]

That's cool. NP.

[broadsword]

That's not at all what happened. The Pope was made to see a vision of Satan arguing with Jesus that he could desroy His Church as he argued with God that he could turn Job away from Him. Jesus gave him the 20th century and increased power to attack the Church. That was the original prayer written by Pope Leo XIII after the vision. The Church cut it down twice after the Pope died, then jst unofficially let go of it after VII, and the devastation began to fester after that.

Perhaps Fathers Bers and Cekada had an agenda. Perhaps they are two of the ones referred to in the original prayer. At any rate, it is a good prayer. And it is a long and improbable stretch to conclude that Leo XIII indicated an antichrist would occupy the Chair of Peter. The prayer said the evil ones would TRY to do that, not that they would succeed. If Pope Leo thought that, he surely would have written a more desperate prayer.

[broadsword]

I doubt that Pope Leo XIII looks down and appreciates your inference, sir. Don't put our(=your) own intentions into his holy prayer for the Church.

[ninenot]

The liturgy was in Greek for several centuries before it was changed to Latin.

News to me. The Roman Rite was codified in roughly 600 AD by Gregory the Great and most of its elements were in place in Rome by 300AD.

And it was in LATIN in Rome.

[ninenot]

Have you some kind of inside information to support this conspiratorial conjecture of yours?

Williamson, Pope of SSPX is the source.

[ninenot]

Gamber and Ratzinger are both well-studied on the liturgy. Without denying the validity of the NO, nor the authority of Paul VI to canonize it, there are a large number of practices which Ratzinger and Gamber address in SERIOUS need of re-examination.

Apparently after a number of fits and starts, they are going to begin in English-speaking countries with a better translation (not perfect, but better) and it MAY even include faithful translations of the Orations.

We have a Spanish-English fascicle at our Parish and without knowing a lot of Spanish, I can tell you that they are DEFINITELY hearing a different Gospel than we are in English.

Ratzinger has also written extensively about the music problems (arguably an area in which he is truly gifted,) and they are quite significant.

If he outlasts JPII, that may be the NEXT area of reform.

It's not for nothing that R. is talking openly about "the reform of the Reform." It is sorely needed.

[ninenot]

SOME who claim Catholicism have a growth on their probiscis, referred to as an "attachment" to SSPX.

[GirlShortstop]

...it would be interesting to see the response were you to degrade the Presbyterian service in the same tone of derision.

How courageous Catholics can be.... I read today about John Kerry opting for a Baptist service (and a stump speech blasting GWB's faith no less!) because if he'd chosen Mass, he would quite probably have been denied by Abp. Burke.

Some strange coincidences.

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

Methinks these n00bs aren't as new as they appear.

They have the same FRiends too. Instantly. Imagine that.

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

Perhaps Fathers Bers and Cekada had an agenda. Perhaps they are two of the ones referred to in the original prayer.

Very likely. The past century has seen the altogether denial of incriminating prophecy from LaSalette, Fatima and now this denial of Pope Leo XIII's vision. Who stands to benefit from suppression of those messages?

Leo XIII's prayer could very likely refer to the Chair of Peter. Why wouldn't the devil want it? That is why we must be vigilant and critical of all those who deviate from the Faith, even the Pope himself. Our Lady of LaSalette predicted "Rome will lose the Faith and become the seat of the AntiChrist". Whether that means a geographic loss (valid Pope fleeing into exile) or an internal coup we don't know. However, the Pope himself is not the Catholic Faith. He is merely the guardian. We can and have survived without Popes for periods of time in Church history.

[broadsword]

I don't think those maters are things we can or will eer figure out. Just pray the prayer and watch God restore things for the Church as he did for Job. These are exciting times, but not for the modernist libs, either politically or in the Church. It's why they are going so nuts lately.

[nika]

The official transition from Greek to Latin liturgy took place in the reign of Pope Damasus (366-384 AD). Take a look at Patrology by Johannes Quasten, Volume II, page 154. Reprinted by Christian Classics TM 1983.