Worse than deja vu all over again: Vatican caves

The Remnant ^ | March 31, 2004 | Thomas Drolesky

[St.Chuck]

The Pius XII quotation from Mediator Dei refers only to minor adjustments to the ancient liturgy.

Are we reading the same thing?

" the Sovereign Pontiff alone enjoys the right to recognize and establish any practice touching the worship of God, to introduce and approve new rites, as also to modify those he judges to require modification."

I guess the reference to minor adjustments is in the footnotes available to a select few.

[St.Chuck]

I do not exaggerate. Here is what one of the greatest liturgists of the twentieth century, Klaus Gamber, has said regarding this liturgical break with tradition:

What makes a litugist great? That his thoughts might support yours?

The statement of yours that the new mass was created "whole-cloth" is not supported either by Klaus Gamber or Cardinal Ratzinger. "Whole-cloth" would be something entirely new, containing nothing resembling the old. It doesn't take a genius to recognize the similarities.

[Land of the Irish]

It doesn't take a genius to recognize the similarities.

Similarities with what? A Lutheran service?

[GirlShortstop]

I heard a sermon on obedience and humility today. It occurred to me that SSPX priests might have to gloss over those virtues.

Prediction time:  you'll hear about blind obedience... if the pope ordered us to become canabalists, Tridentine rite save by Lefebvre... yada, yada, yada ad nauseum.

OBEDIENCE is key to being faithful; it is found in the TRUTH written on our hearts.  It's written there because no one has to be a rocket scientist, theologian, pope, etc., to recognize it, or figure it out, imo.

Pax et bonum!

[St.Chuck]

Pax et bonum!

Peace and joy to you as well.

Prediction time: you'll hear about blind obedience...

Ha, you are right, to which I will counter:

Mark 10:52 "Go," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you." Immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus along the road.

Luke 18:42 Jesus said to him, "Receive your sight; your faith has healed you."

2 Corinthians 5:7 We live by faith, not by sight.

Blind obedience is just the acknowlegment that we are living by faith and not necessarily sight. Many Catholics tend to use their sight and see the visible Church, and are repulsed, but it takes faith to see the invisible church that the catechism speaks of, and the result is awe and attraction.

[St.Chuck]

Similarities with what?

You must be a genius.

[Land of the Irish]

You must be a genius.

No, I'm just a Catholic.

[broadsword]

The Original Prayer to St. Michael the Archangel as written by Pope Leo XIII on October 13, 1884:

O Glorious Archangel St. Michael, Prince of the heavenly host, be our defense in the terrible warfare which we carry on against principalities and powers, against the rulers of this world of darkness, spirits of evil. Come to the aid of man, whom God created immortal, made in His own image and likeness, and redeemed at a great price from the tyranny of the devil. Fight this day the battle of the Lord, together with the holy angels, as already thou hast fought the leader of the proud angels, Lucifer, and his apostate host, who were powerless to resist thee, nor was there place for them any longer in heaven. That cruel, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil or Satan who seduces the whole world, was cast into the abyss with his angels. Behold, this primeval enemy and slayer of men has taken courage. Transformed into an angel of light, he wanders about with all the multitude of wicked spirits, invading the earth in order to blot out the name of God and of His Christ, to seize upon, slay and cast into eternal perdition souls destined for the crown of eternal glory. This wicked dragon pours out, as a most impure flood, the venom of his malice on men of depraved mind and corrupt heart, the spirit of lying, of impiety, of blasphemy, and the pestilent breath of impurity, and of every vice and iniquity. These most crafty enemies have filled and inebriated with gall and bitterness the Church, the spouse of the immaculate Lamb, and have laid impious hands on her most sacred possessions. In the Holy Place itself, where has been set up the See of the most holy Peter and the Chair of Truth for the light of the world, they have raised the throne of their abominable impiety, with the iniquitous design that when the Pastor has been struck, the sheep may be scattered. Arise then, O invincible Prince, bring help against the attacks of the lost spirits to the people of God, and give them the victory. They venerate thee as their protector and patron; in thee holy Church glories as her defense against the malicious power of hell; to thee has God entrusted the souls of men to be established in heavenly beatitude. Oh, pray to the God of peace that He may put Satan under our feet, so far conquered that he may no longer be able to hold men in captivity and harm the Church. Offer our prayers in the sight of the Most High, so that they may quickly conciliate the mercies of the Lord; and beating down the dragon, the ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, do thou again make him captive in the abyss, that he may no longer seduce the nations. Amen.

The shortened version:
Saint Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle; be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil. May God rebuke him; we humbly pray: and do thou O Prince of the heavenly host, by the power of God, thrust down to hell Satan and all the evil spirits who wander through the world seeking the ruin of souls. Amen.

The great Pope ordered this prayer to be said after EVERY low Mass. The Church cut it down twice after he died, then just stopped saying it after VII, and the liturgical problems flourished after that. Pray this great prayer for our Church, my friends. Pope Leo XIII saw all this coming in a vision, and he gave us this prayer to defend the Church. Too bad the enemy brought the prayer to a virtual end among God's people. My parish still says it after every low Mass. I also like to say the real version myself.

Dominus vobiscum

[St.Chuck]

No, I'm just a Catholic.

No need to explain in detail that the term "Whole-cloth" is an extreme exageration then. I can only assume that you derive a whole lot of pleasure from deriding the Holy Mass that millions upon millions receive the graces that come from assisting at it.

[St.Chuck]

Are you telling us that Leo XIII added the novelty of a prayer he just mde up whole-cloth? Could he do that?

[Land of the Irish]

...that millions upon millions receive the graces that come from assisting at it.

When it comes to salvation, there is no safety in numbers.

[Land of the Irish]

Are you telling us that Leo XIII added the novelty of a prayer he just mde up whole-cloth?

No, it was after he collapsed on the altar, after having offered the Holy Mass, and receiving a vision of the state of the Church as it is today.

[St.Chuck]

The safety is in the church, not the numbers. However, it is not good form to constantly degrade and devalue the faith that is dear to so many. I guess, by claiming that you are Catholic, you can get away with it, but it would be interesting to see the response were you to degrade the Presbyterian service in the same tone of derision.

[Piers-the-Ploughman]

this prayer and "The Last Gospel" are for me particularly attractive parts of the low Tridentine mass. I wish they would add them to novus ordo; I notice they do say them on EWTN mass, very beautiful.

[Viva Christo Rey]

In the Holy Place itself, where has been set up the See of the most holy Peter and the Chair of Truth for the light of the world, they have raised the throne of their abominable impiety, with the iniquitous design that when the Pastor has been struck, the sheep may be scattered.

EXACTLY!

[Land of the Irish]

The safety is in the church, not the numbers.

So John Kerry is safe.

[broadsword]

Are you telling us that Leo XIII added the novelty of a prayer he just mde up whole-cloth? Could he do that?

He was the Pope, and a great one too. He can do what he wants. I have never disputed that. I only got brownshirted because I said I wished the current Pope would do more to protect the orthodoxy of our Church and to protect the innocent victims of sexual predators in the clergy. For that, I was relentlessly accused of being a schismatic and an SSPXer, which I am not, and said so very clearly. I have said before, if the Pope says we are to do jumping jacks in the mass, then I will do them. It's his choice and power and authority. I am not against the NO Mass. I just decry the wacked-out abuses of it. If people would obey the Pope and his GIRMs, and stop preaching new-age nonsense, marxism and outright heresy from the pulpit, then the Church would be far better off and I wouldn't have to drive so far to go to church at a beautiful indult Mass.

I don't get what you mean with the "whole cloth" term. What are you trying to say by that?

Pope Leo XIII had a vision of Satan being given the 20th century to attack the Church as in the story of job. He saw what was coming and he gave us that great prayer to help defend our Church against the atack he knew would come in the 20th century.

[nika]

The Pius XII quotation from Mediator Dei refers only to minor adjustments to the ancient liturgy.
--ultima ratio

Wrong. You are confusing what you want desperately to believe with what he said. He didn't say "minor adjustments," he said,

"... the Sovereign Pontiff alone enjoys the right to recognize and establish any practice touching the worship of God, to INTRODUCE and APPROVE NEW RITES, as also to MODIFY [ not "minor adjustments" but MODIFY ] those HE [ NOT YOU ] judges to require modification.
--Pope Pius XII, Mediator Dei, Nov. 20, 1947

Not in his wildest dreams did this good pope ever suppose his successor would do so rash and foolish a thing as to invent a mass out of whole cloth and then ban the Mass of the Ages.
--ultima ratio

Wrong again. First, you pretend to possess certainty about that which you cannot be certain. You don't know what Pius XII thought his successor might do. Secondly, his successors did not "invent a mass." Nor did they "ban the mass of the ages." So at least we can be certain about this: You really don't know what you are talking about.

By approval of "new rites" he certainly did not mean the destruction of the ancient Roman Rite itself which he took pains to argue had evolved for more than a thousand years under the guidance of the Holy Spirit Himself.
--ultima ratio

Once again (as usual), you are completely wrong. The Tridentine Mass is still said in dioceses where the local local Bishop has given his approval for this. Although the Pope has the authority to do away with it, he hasn't. He (not you) has been given the keys of the kingdom. Besides making clear that the Sovereign Pontiff has the right to introduce new rites, Pius XII made clear that the Roman Rite is not superior to other rites but on a par with them:

If in this encyclical letter We treat chiefly of the Latin liturgy, it is not because We esteem less highly the venerable liturgies of the Eastern Church, whose ancient and honorable ritual traditions are just as dear to Us.
--Pope Pius XII, Mediator Dei, Nov. 20, 1947

Just because you have a preference for the Roman Rite does not give you a license to dismember the earthly Body of Christ with your schismatic views. Why don't you put your bloody hatchet away and just attend an approved Tridentine Mass somewhere?

In fact, he says that there are parts of the ancient Mass so sacred that no man--not even a pope--dare even touch them to modify them. Certain slight adjustments were indeed permitted, therefore--in rubrics, in minor textual additions or subtractions, but nothing substantive might ever be changed. This message was the whole tenor of Mediator Dei--an argument to liturgists, in fact, to keep hands off the Sacred Liturgy. To use this encyclical, therefore, as if that pope would have approved of the radical institution of a whole new rite is not only dishonest--it does Pius XII a disservice and perverts his message.
--ultima ratio

The perversion of his message is yours. The Pope said the Sovereign Pontiff had the right to introduce a new rite in Mediator Dei. That was cited above. And yet you still charge:

To use this encyclical, therefore, as if that pope would have approved of the ... institution of a whole new rite ...
--ultima ratio

Are you capable of reading anything but your preconceived delusions into the words of the Popes? Your silly interpretation of what he said is not what he said. Try to grasp this: The POPE has the authority to determine what is substantive and what isn't. NOT YOU. Whatever PETER (not you) binds on earth is bound in heaven. It doesn't matter what your trite opinion of his decisions is.

You jam more distortions and illogical trash into a few paragraphs that anybody I have ever read. Sheesh! Who has time to respond to it all? I certainly don't. So I will just respond to one more ridiculous notion of yours:

It is not true that Greek was used several centuries before switching to Latin--a common misconception. Scholars have found evidence of the use of Latin in the earliest days of Christianity in Rome and have revised their thinking on this. Check the scholarship.
--ultima ratio

The official transition from Greek to Latin liturgy took place in the reign of Pope Damasus (366-384 AD). The church had already converted the entire known world by then (without the help of the Tridentine Mass). Take a look at Patrology by Johannes Quasten, Volume II, page 154. Reprinted by Christian Classics ^TM 1983.

[Viva Christo Rey]

In the Holy Place itself, where has been set up the See of the most holy Peter and the Chair of Truth for the light of the world, they have raised the throne of their abominable impiety, with the iniquitous design that when the Pastor has been struck, the sheep may be scattered.

[broadsword]

You might want to be very careful how you interpret the great Pope's prayer, my friend. Be careful not to blaspheme against the promises of Christ to protect His Church. The Church was to take a terrible beating in the 20th century, which it obviously did, but it dodn't die, and never will. The Pope is still the Pope, no matter his quality, as ever has been. There have been good and bad ones all along.

Just be glad that you live in time to see (hopefully) some of the repair of what damage was done.