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Mary who?
Paraclete Forum ^ | October 2000 | T. A. McMahon

Posted on 03/24/2004 1:02:28 PM PST by HarleyD

A few months ago I was asked by Grizzly Adams Productions/PAX Television Network to appear in a documentary with the tentative title "The Mystery of Fatima." For those not familiar with the subject, it is claimed that in 1917, Mary, the mother of Jesus, appeared to three young shepherd children in the rugged hills a few miles west of Fatima, Portugal, giving them secret messages to be revealed at a later date. Growing up Catholic, I was very aware of the apparitions of Fatima, and like most of my Catholic grade-school friends, I had anxieties about what we perceived to be secrets too frightening to imagine.

The video production company was looking for a critic, and I reluctantly decided to be interviewed. My reluctance had to do with how things rarely turn out the way one would hope, especially when dealing with secular productions. Based upon the interview, the program (which I have yet to see) could well have me crying out with Job, "For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me" (3:25).

The appeal of Mary is a growing phenomenon which needs to be addressed biblically, having spread far beyond the traditional borders of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches. Mary, who has at least a thousand times more shrines dedicated to her than even her Son, is rapidly becoming the "queen of ecumenism," someone whom diverse religions can honor, rally around, and even worship without offending their respective theologies. The Los Angeles Times reported that "A growing number of Americans from all Christian denominations are reaching out to the Virgin Mary as a comforting conduit of spirituality and a symbol of peace in troubled times. ...It's not just Catholics who are interested in Mary and following the apparitions...." 1

Surprisingly, apparitions of Mary even appear in Islamic countries, where multitudes of Muslims turn out to honor her. For example, in the late 1960s thousands witnessed "a lady composed of light" who was holding a baby as she seemed to be moving across the roof of a Coptic Orthodox church on the outskirts of Cairo, Egypt. "Several nights each week, thousands of Muslims fell to their knees on prayer rugs spread wherever space permitted, and wept before the magnificent, wondrous, glorious form of Our Lady from Heaven.'" 2 While such a reaction may seem puzzling to western Christians, there is a substantial basis for it. An entire chapter (Maryam) in the Qur'an and numerous other verses therein, as well as hundreds of hadiths, pay homage to Mary, the mother of Jesus. Islamic scholar Aliah Schleifer writes in her book Mary the Blessed Virgin of Islam that Mary is esteemed above the most revered women of the Muslim faith, including Muhammad's two favorite wives Khadija and Aisha, and his daughter Fatima. According to Schleifer, one hadith quotes Muhammad as saying he would take Mary as one of his wives in heaven: "The Messenger of God said, `God married me in Paradise to Mary....'" 3 Schleifer concludes,

From the perspective of the classical Muslim scholars, Mary, in the Qur'an and Sunna, is a symbol that brings together all revelation. As a descendant of the great Israelite prophets, the bearer of the word, the mother of Jesus, and as traditional Sunni Islam's chosen woman of the worlds, Mary is symbolic of the Qur'anic message that revelation has not been confined to one particular people. 4

In addition, the fact that an apparition claiming to be Mary appeared near a place named for Muhammad's favorite daughter has endeared millions of Muslims to "Our Lady of Fatima." In 1992 The Fatima Crusader reported that more than 500,000 followers of Islam turned out to honor a statue of the Fatima Mary in Bombay, India.

It would seem that at least some apparitions of Mary share the Muslim's respect for the Islamic faith. Our Lady of Medjugorje, who has made numerous appearances in the wartorn area of Bosnia and Herzegovina (where Roman Catholics, Muslims and Orthodox are killing one another), allegedly communicated to one of the visionaries, "Tell this priest, tell everyone, that it is you who are divided on earth. The Muslims and the Orthodox, for the same reason as Catholics, are equal before my Son and I [sic]. You are all my children."5 Catholic Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen, popular television evangelist of the late '50s and early '60s, predicted that Mary would be the key to reconciling the faiths of Rome and Mecca.

Mary has played a key role in the conversion to Catholicism of some of that Church's leading apologists such as former Reformed theologian Tim Staples and Scott Hahn, a graduate of the evangelical Gordon-Conwell Seminary and former Presbyterian minister. Staples credits "the Lord and his Mother" with helping him convert to Romanism. He writes, "I had despised for so long the Catholic belief in Mary's intercession. But...I finally gave in to her loving call...." 6 For spiritual assistance in his conversion Hahn turned to praying the rosary, in which 153 of 170 prayers are offered to Mary. He writes in his conversion story, "I proceeded to pray [the rosary], and as I prayed I felt more in my heart what I came to know in my mind: I am a child of God. I don't just have God as my Father and Christ as my brother; I have His Mother for my own." 7 Franciscan University, where Hahn is a professor, is one of the foremost promoters of tours to the shrine of Our Lady of Medjugorje.

More and more Protestants are becoming attracted to Mary. The historic St. Thomas Episcopal Church in New York City prominently displays a statue of Our Lady of Fifth Avenue. The late John Cardinal O'Connor and Orthodox Archbishop Peter were on hand for its dedication in 1991. Charles Dickson wrote a popular little book in 1996 encouraging a reconsideration of Mary among evangelicals. In A Protestant Pastor Looks at Mary, he points out that Luther and Calvin were more agreeable toward Mary than later generations of their followers. Dickson quotes from a letter Luther wrote to the Duke of Saxony: "May the tender Mother of God herself procure for me the spirit of wisdom profitably and thoroughly to expound this song of hers." One enthusiastic Amazon.com reviewer writes, "[Dickson's] book is superb!....this book by a Protestant is the best book about the Holy Virgin I have read to date. This book made me cry and it made my spirit laugh. After reading this book, few people will be able to deny Mary's role in the lives of all Christians... [and] how the Rosary is for all Christians. ...This book also helps construct a bridge between Christian groups. It attempts to establish some much needed common ground (with lots of success). Will Protestants and Catholics ever be able to agree about Mary? Well, this book sure will help that happen!"

In response to the question, "Will Protestants and Catholics [or Muslims, for that matter] ever be able to agree about Mary?", a more basic question must be asked: "Mary who?"

The Mary of the Orthodox Church was sinless but not conceived immaculately. The Mary of Islam is confused with Miriam, sister of Moses and Aaron, whose father was Amram. She is not the Mother either of God or of the Son of God ("Allah has no son" _ Surah IV:171). The Mary of Catholicism was immaculately conceived, the Mother of God, a perpetual virgin, Mediatrix between God and man, and the Queen of Heaven.

Then there's the Mary of the Bible

For anyone who has an interest in learning the truth about Mary, the only trustworthy account is to be found in the Scriptures, where information is presented by those who knew her personally and, more importantly, whose writings were under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Fewer than 90 Bible verses address the life of Mary. In them we find a wonderfully humble servant of the Lord who rejoices in Him as her Savior (Lk 1:47). Obviously her heart was not "immaculate" nor was she conceived without sin because her Son, her Savior, came not for the sinless but "to seek and to save that which was lost" (Lk 19:10). The Catholic Church seems to be confused over this issue of Mary's sinlessness because it considers her to be the woman of Revelation 12, "clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars." This specific imagery is reflected on innumerable statues of Mary around the world. Yet the Bible says this woman gave birth in pain and travail (Rv 12:2), and pain and labor are part of God's judgment on sinners (Gn 3:15-16). So either the (recently beatified) "infallible" Pope Pius IX, who engineered her immaculate conception into Church dogma, was wrong about Mary's sinlessness, or the "infallible" Pope Pius XII and numerous other Catholic theologians were wrong about Mary being the "woman" of Revelation 12:1-2.

Mary's ministry was simply the birth and nurturing of the child Jesus. Once He reached adulthood, she played no influential part in His earthly service. It's at the wedding feast of Cana, which began the public ministry of Jesus, that her last words are recorded. Fittingly, she tells the servants, "Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it" (Jn 2:5). There is no doubt that she is exemplary among biblical saints as a model of obedience and submission to the will of God, especially in the appointment to which she was called. In keeping with the words of John the Baptist, "He must increase, but I must decrease" (Jn 3:30), Mary faded into the background.

Search the Scriptures as you will and you will find no leadership role for Mary among the Apostles. She taught no doctrine. We never hear of the Apostles seeking her out for counsel. Other than the gospels, Mary is mentioned only once in the New Testament, where the Book of Acts tells us of her simple participation in a prayer meeting along with her sons. The teaching that Mary was a perpetual virgin is also contradicted by many other verses (Mt 12:46; Mk 6:3; Jn 7:3,5; 1 Cor 9:5; Gal 1:19; Ps 69:8; etc.).

When you compare what the apparitions around the world say and do in claiming to be Mary, you get, to borrow a phrase, a Mary "quite contrary" to the one presented in Scripture. In subtle and sometimes not so subtle ways the apparitions are given to self-aggrandizement and self-promotion -all to the devaluation of Jesus-and their instructions are often antibiblical and anti-Christ. The "Mary" who spoke to Father Gobbi, the founder of the Marian Movement of more than 100,000 priests, declared, "Each of My statues is a sign of a presence of Mine and reminds you of your heavenly Mother. Therefore it must be honored and put in places of greater veneration...." 8

Consider Our Lady of Fatima: "Say the Rosary every day to obtain peace for the world....Pray, pray, a great deal, and make sacrifices for sinners, for many souls go to hell because they have no one to make sacrifices for them....God wishes to establish in the world the devotion to My immaculate heart. If people do what I tell you, many souls will be saved and there will be peace." 9

This is not the humble and submissive Mary of the Bible. The rosary invokes prayers to Mary ten times for every one for the Lord; Jesus is the Prince of Peace; only Christ's once-for-all sacrifice saves souls from hell; neither is Mary's heart immaculate, nor are we to be spiritually devoted to anyone other than our Lord and Savior. The Marian apparitions present a status for Mary which is without support or precedent in the Scriptures. The Apostle Peter, a contemporary of Mary and regarded by Catholics as the first pope, wrote nothing about her. The Apostle Paul, through the Holy Spirit, gave more specific instruction in living the Christian life than any other writer in the Bible, yet made no mention of the alleged importance of devotions or reparations to Mary. In contrast to the apparitional Mary who claims to have been "conceived without sin," Paul called himself "the chief of sinners," yet God made him the most productive figure of the New Testament after Christ. The Apostle John, who wrote the last book of the Bible and was given the care of Mary by Jesus himself, says nothing about venerating her.

The apparitions are clearly not the mother of Jesus, although they make every attempt to be perceived that way. Many appear as a young woman bearing an infant. So who's this child? Jesus was in His thirties when He returned triumphantly to His Father. Obviously, the apparitional Mary has the superior position in the relationship; what small child would not be obedient to his mother? Moreover, rather than as a helpless babe, the Bible exalts Jesus as the King of kings, Lord of lords, Creator of the universe, the glorified Son of God, God manifested in the flesh!

Apparitions are the primary source of many major Catholic liturgies, rituals, and dogmas. The Brown Scapular which "releases souls from purgatory" came from Our Lady of Mt. Carmel in 1251; in 1830 an apparition introduced the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception along with the Miraculous Medal; the Dominican Order claims its founder initiated the devotion of the rosary through the counsel of an apparition of Mary in the thirteenth century.

Although mankind is being drawn into every kind of spiritual deception in the last days before the return of Jesus, it is especially sad that the real mother of Jesus, the remarkable "handmaid of the Lord" (Lk 1:38), is so terribly misrepresented, thereby drawing millions away from her Son. In the Gospel of Luke (11:27-28) we find a well-meaning woman saying to Jesus concerning His mother, "Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!" Had the Mary we know from Scripture been present, we can be certain that she would have added a hearty amen to her Son's poignant response: "Rather, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!" May our obedience to God's Word be our passion.

Endnotes

1 L.A. Times, 12/25/98

2 Fatima Prophecy, Ray Stanford

3 Schleifer, Mary the Blessed Virgin of Islam, 64

4 Ibid, 100.

5 Medjugorje Day by Day, Richard Beyer, Ave Maria Press, 1993

6 Patrick Madrid, Surprised by Truth, Bascilica Press, 1994, 239-40

7 http://kutai.kinabalu.net/scotthahn.html#journey

8 Fr. Don Stefano Gobbi, To the Priests, Our Lady's Beloved Sons, 1998. 383

9 Our Lady of Fatima's Peace Plan from Heaven, Tan Books and Publishers, 1983, inside back cover

FROM: The Berean Call, October 2000 (http://www.thebereancall.org)


TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events; Evangelical Christian; General Discusssion; Mainline Protestant; Orthodox Christian
KEYWORDS: anticatholictripe; fatima; poothatlooklikewords
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An interesting article on the Fatima stuff.

"Mary, who has at least a thousand times more shrines dedicated to her than even her Son, is rapidly becoming the "queen of ecumenism," someone whom diverse religions can honor, rally around, and even worship without offending their respective theologies.

Many surprises in this article. Got to run but I'm surprised at Muslims honoring Mary.

1 posted on 03/24/2004 1:02:28 PM PST by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD
"A Biblical Portrait of Mary

Mary is prefigured immediately after the Fall of Man; her divine motherhood is prophesied.

Gen 3:14-15
Then the Lord God said to the serpent: "... I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; He will strike at your head, while you strike at his heel."

Mary and her role in the history of our salvation is foretold by the prophet Isaiah; her virginity and divine motherhood is confirmed.

Is 7:13-14
Then he (Ahaz) said: "... Therefore the Lord himself will give you this sign: the virgin shall be with child, and bear a son, and shall name him Immanuel."
Matthew begins his genealogy with Abraham and ends with Mary.

Mt 1:16
Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary. Of her was born Jesus who is called the Messiah.
Luke narrates the angel Gabriel's announcement to Mary that she is to conceive a son and remain a virgin.

Lk 1: 26-38
...(The angel Gabriel said) "Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you ... The holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God." ... Mary said, "Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord. May it be done to me according to your word."
Luke also narrates Mary's visit to her cousin Elizabeth (pregnant with John the Baptist). It is Elizabeth who first calls Mary "the mother of God (Lord)".

Lk 1:39-45
... When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the infant leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth, filled with the holy Spirit, cried out in a loud voice and said, "Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? ... Blessed are you who believed that what was spoken to you by the Lord would be fulfilled."

Lk 1:46-49
And Mary said: "My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord; my spirit rejoices in God my savior. For he has looked upon his handmaid's lowliness; behold, from now on will all ages call me blessed. The Mighty One has done great things for me, and holy is his name."
Matthew records Mary's engagement to Joseph.

Mt. 1:18-25
... When his mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, but before they lived together, she was found with child through the holy Spirit. ... the angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary your wife into your home. For it is through the holy Spirit that this child has been conceived in her. She will bear a son and you are to name him Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins." He (Joseph) had no relations with her until she bore a son, and he named him Jesus.
Luke narrates the birth events of Jesus.

Lk 2:1-19
... Joseph too went up from Galilee from the town of Nazareth to Judea, to the city of David that is called Bethlehem, because he was of the house and family of David, to be enrolled with Mary, his betrothed, who was with child. While they were there, the time came for her to have her child, and she gave birth to her firstborn son. She wrapped him in swaddling clothes and laid him in a manger ... (Shepherds) went in haste and found Mary and Joseph, and the infant ... Mary kept all these things (that the shepherds told her), reflecting on them in her heart.
Luke includes the circumcision and presentation of Jesus.

Lk 2:33-35
The child's father and mother were amazed at what was said about him; and Simeon blessed them and said to Mary his mother, "Behold, this child is destined for the fall and rise of many in Israel, and to be a sign that will be contradicted (and you yourself a sword will pierce) so that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed."
Luke narrates the loss and finding of Jesus in the temple in Jerusalem by Mary and Joseph.

Lk 2:48-51
When his parents saw him, they were astonished, and his mother said to him, "Son, why have you done this to us? Your father and I have been looking for you with great anxiety." And he said to them, "Why were you looking for me? Did you not know that I must be in my Father's house?" But they did not understand what he said to them. He went down with them and came to Nazareth, and was obedient to them; and his mother kept all these things in her heart.
John records the wedding feast at Cana where Mary prompts Jesus' first miracle.

Jn 2:1-12
On the third day there was a wedding in Cana in Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there. Jesus and his disciples were also invited to the wedding. When the wine ran short, the mother of Jesus said to him, "They have no wine." (And) Jesus said to her, "Woman, how does your concern affect me? My hour has not yet come." His mother said to the servers, "Do whatever he tells you." ... Jesus did this as the beginning of his signs in Cana in Galilee and so revealed his glory, and his disciples began to believe in him. After this, he and his mother, (his) brothers, and his disciples went down to Capernaum and stayed there only a few days.
Matthew writes of Jesus' own words that compare his relationship with his followers to his relationship with his mother.

Mt 12:46-50 (Mk 3:31-35)
While he was still speaking to the crowds, his mother and his brothers appeared outside, wishing to speak with him. ... And stretching out his hand toward his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my heavenly Father is my brother, and sister, and mother."
It is John (an eye witness) who recalls his personal experience at the foot of the cross on Calvary.

Jn 19:25-27
Standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary of Magdala. When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple there whom he loved, he said to his mother, "Woman, behold, your son." Then he said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother." And from that hour the disciple took her into his home.
Luke, in his Acts of the Apostles, records the presence of Mary with the Apostles in the community in Jerusalem between the Ascension of Jesus and Pentecost.

Acts 1:12-14
Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a sabbath day's journey away. When they entered the city they went to the upper room where they were staying. ... All these devoted themselves with one accord to prayer, together with some women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and his brothers.
A final reference to Mary is found in John's Book of Revelation.

Rev 12:1-5
A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. She was with child and wailed aloud in pain as she labored to give birth. ... She gave birth to a son, a male child, destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod. Her child was caught up to God and his throne."

The writers reference to "1,000 more shrines to Mary is mis-leading. He should have included the hundreds of thousands of Churches (shrines) for Jesus built by the Catholic Church.

2 posted on 03/24/2004 1:36:08 PM PST by franky (Pray for the souls of the faithful departed. Pray for our own souls to receive the grace of a happy)
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To: HarleyD
Our Lady of Medjugorje, who has made numerous appearances in the wartorn area of Bosnia and Herzegovina

The Catholic Church does not recognize this alleged apparition as authentic.

Regarding apparitions of our Lord, our Lady, or any other of the angels and saints in general, "approval" by the Church merely means that there is nothing in them contrary to the Faith given by Christ through his Apostles to the Church under guidance of the Holy Spirit. They are always considered private revelation, as opposed to the public revelation that the Church passes on infallibly, and individuals are free to believe in them or not. This is because they are not adding, subtracting, or changing the infallible Dei Verbum, which all Catholics must believe. This follows from St. Paul's counsel in the Holy Scriptures.

Medjugorje, as well as Fr. Gobbi mentioned later in the article, have both been rejected by the Church as not being worthy of belief.

3 posted on 03/24/2004 1:49:00 PM PST by TotusTuus
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To: HarleyD
Muslims don't honor Mary in the same way Catholics and Orthodox do. They don't have the same beliefs (obviously). The fact is that though many Catholic and Orthodox parishes have the name "Our Lady of....," first and foremost, the Church is dedicated and consecrated to Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ
4 posted on 03/24/2004 1:55:25 PM PST by Pyro7480 (Minister for the Conversion of Hardened Sinners,Tomas de Torquemada Gentlemen's Club)
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To: HarleyD
For spiritual assistance in his conversion Hahn turned to praying the rosary, in which 153 of 170 prayers are offered to Mary.

The author shows his misunderstanding of the meditative prayer called the Rosary. The prayer is meditation on the mysteries of our Lord's life - as contained in the Holy Scriptures - under the vocal prayers of the angelic salutation and Lord's prayer - both coming from Holy Scripture. The author also forgot to take into consideration the doxology to the Blessed Trinity at the end of each decade of the Rosary in his calculations, not to mention excluding the 5 new luminous mysteries.

In any event, the Rosary is not meant to be about counting off prayers - using beads explicitly frees one from this - but meditating on the life of our Lord, where the vocal prayers act as a "clock" between each set of mysteries.

5 posted on 03/24/2004 1:57:41 PM PST by TotusTuus
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To: HarleyD
Harley, Harley, Harley...

Some real cheap shots.

The article makes it appear that the Blessed Virgin doesn't care whether people are Muslim or not. First it recounts "thousands of Muslims" coming to reverence her. Please note that this appearance brought them to a CHRISTIAN church.

Then the article associates this event (which was never confirmed by the RCC) with another event that was, the apparition of Fatima. But this creates a false context. The Apparition at Medjugorje wasn't endorsing Islam, and it is an absolute obscenity to suggest it was! The apparition appeared just before a horrific war, warning people that we ALL are created by God. Our Lady of Medjugorje pleaded for us to pray for the conversion of Muslims!


Scott Hahn's conversion story is interestingly portrayed. Scott Hahn will tell you he converted after researching to make attacks against the Catholic position on the basis of sola scriptura, only to discover that the Catholic position *was* the scriptural position. It was only THEN that he had this emotional conversion experience. And read what he said about the rosary: his lips enjoin Mary to pray with him, while his mind meditates on the mysteries of Christ, his savior! (The prayers "to Mary:" "...pray for us sinners...")


As for so many more churches be "dedicated to Mary than Christ:" ALL RCC churches are dedicated to Christ; Walk in our church and you will see him, front and center, on the cross. Most are named for a patron saint, asking that saint to join them in prayer. Most commonly, but still a small percentage of the time, this is the Blessed Virgin.

As for Revelations 12, the author misrepresents the Catholic position. The lady in Revelations is the Church itself. Catholics, including myself, point out Revelations 12 to show that the bible *does* treat Mary as special, not because Mary is the woman in Revelations, but because the bible uses Mary as the embodiment of the entire church! Mary is immaculate; we who make up the church are not. Likewise, the church also uses the gospel of John ("Behold your mother") as a means not only of asserting the fitness of regarding Mary as our mother, but also asserting the need we have to obey the Church.

And all this stuff about Mary being humble and submissive as if it is a refutation of the honors she is bestowed by the church: Mary is not humble and submissive in relation to man! She is humble and submissive to God! In the same passage where she refers to herself as the handmaiden of the LORD, she proclaims "From henceforth all generations shall call me blessed." Even Elizabeth, her older cousin, said, "Who am I that the mother of my Lord should come to me?"

And we do not pray ten times more to Mary than to Jesus. When we pray to Mary, we are asking her to join us in our prayer to Jesus, which we do in the contemplation of the mysteries of the rosary. Hence, the prayers are so repetitive: so the recitation of the beseechments to Mary form no obstacle to our concentration apon Jesus!

Honestly, HarleyD... Have you nothing better to do than perpetually try to fan antagonisms and division? We Catholics don't exactly flood FR with attacks on Calvin.
6 posted on 03/24/2004 1:59:17 PM PST by dangus
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To: HarleyD
Is this your method of maintaining Protestant "street cred", after I told you that you Calvinists often sound suspiciously Catholic?
7 posted on 03/24/2004 2:02:49 PM PST by ArrogantBustard (Chief Engineer, Tomas de Torquemada Gentlemens' Club)
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To: HarleyD
Obviously her heart was not "immaculate" nor was she conceived without sin because her Son, her Savior, came not for the sinless but "to seek and to save that which was lost" (Lk 19:10). The Catholic Church seems to be confused...

Obvious to whom? The author seems to be the one confused here, not the Catholic Church. He would do well to at least study and learn what the Church means by the term "immaculate conception" before ascribing incorrect beliefs to the Catholic Church - what St. Paul calls the "ground and pillar of Truth".

The Church has always taught that this singular Grace given to her who became (and remains) the real, true, and substantial Mother of God Incarnate - and by extension to those who become his adopted brothers and sisters - is a result of the Pascal Mystery of Christ's Redemptive act on behalf of all mankind - preeminently His Mother (and ours).

8 posted on 03/24/2004 2:09:57 PM PST by TotusTuus
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To: HarleyD
Mary's ministry was simply the birth and nurturing of the child Jesus. Once He reached adulthood, she played no influential part in His earthly service.

Oh, really? Mary the incubator now? As if becoming the Mother of GOD was chosen for her from her Creator by throwing Divine darts at the book of life? As if her fiat on behalf of all mankind before the angel WHO GREETED HER (hint: find one other place in Scripture where primary honor is given by a known angel to a human) given in a Grace FILLED freedom was not THE singular act which brought Christ into the world?

Where do the Holy Scriptures say she played no influential part in His "earthly" service? The article already mentions the event of the wedding at Cana - which is a primary reason that the Church honors her so much.

9 posted on 03/24/2004 2:25:52 PM PST by TotusTuus
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To: HarleyD
Apparitions are the primary source of many major Catholic liturgies, rituals, and dogmas.

Quite the opposite actually. The valid apparitions of Mary tend to follow the liturgies, rituals, and dogmas of Christ's Church in support of them!

10 posted on 03/24/2004 2:33:49 PM PST by TotusTuus
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To: dangus; HarleyD
***When we pray to Mary, we are asking her to join us in our prayer to Jesus, ***

If you were sick would you ask for the doctor or the doctor's mother?

11 posted on 03/24/2004 2:39:06 PM PST by PetroniusMaximus
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To: PetroniusMaximus
If you were sick would you ask for the doctor or the doctor's mother?

I'd ask the nurse to get me a doctor.

If you were sick would you go to a hospital or would you go in to your garage and pretend it was a hospital?

12 posted on 03/24/2004 2:44:41 PM PST by conservonator
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To: HarleyD
Then there's the Mary of the Bible

There are many non-sequitors which follow in this section from the author. He's apparently concerned that somehow, in honoring Mary, it takes away from the Worship and Adoration of Christ and God. I'll simply refute them with this from the mouth of Mary herself in her Magnificat before St. Elizabeth found in St. Luke's Gospel:

For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed....

13 posted on 03/24/2004 2:44:57 PM PST by TotusTuus
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To: PetroniusMaximus; conservonator
If you were sick would you ask for the doctor or the doctor's mother?

I'd ask the nurse to get me a doctor.

Your nurse starts the IV, gives the meds and otherwises guides you back to health per the instructions of your doctor.

Great analogy! It fits the intervention of Mary and the saints quite well.

C_of_D RN

14 posted on 03/24/2004 3:02:36 PM PST by Canticle_of_Deborah
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To: conservonator
***I'd ask the nurse to get me a doctor***

And once you had the doctors attention why would you still need the nurse?

Do you think you need Mary to win Jesus' love?

"He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things?"
15 posted on 03/24/2004 3:03:00 PM PST by PetroniusMaximus
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To: Canticle_of_Deborah
***Your nurse starts the IV, gives the meds and otherwises guides you back to health per the instructions of your doctor.***

That's because a doctor has many patients and doesn't have time for all of them!!!

Would you rather have a full time doctor or nurse?

16 posted on 03/24/2004 3:04:56 PM PST by PetroniusMaximus
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To: PetroniusMaximus
That's because a doctor has many patients and doesn't have time for all of them!!! Would you rather have a full time doctor or nurse?

LOLOLOLOL!

Petronius, the day I see a doctor empty a bedpan is the day I become a Calvinist, lol!

17 posted on 03/24/2004 3:09:10 PM PST by Canticle_of_Deborah
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To: Canticle_of_Deborah
C_of_D RN

Wife, Mother, several aunts and cousins are RN's. Needless to say, I have a lot of respect for the profession and those that practice it:)

18 posted on 03/24/2004 3:15:40 PM PST by conservonator
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To: PetroniusMaximus
Do you think you need Mary to win Jesus' love?

W/o Mary, there is no Jesus. He chose to come in to this world in that way for a purpose.

Would you go to a garage and call it a hospital?

19 posted on 03/24/2004 3:19:02 PM PST by conservonator
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To: PetroniusMaximus
Jesus said our prayers were more powerful when we pray in unison, and who better to pray with. Did not the converts in Acts constantly ask the disciples to pray for them?
20 posted on 03/24/2004 3:28:42 PM PST by dangus
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