Latin Masses to be allowed after 25 years

Arizona Republic ^ | 3/17/2004 | Michael Clancy

[lrslattery]

Latin, the ancient language of the Catholic Church, will be allowed in Diocese of Phoenix churches for the first time in at least 25 years.

Bishop Thomas J. Olmsted, reversing 20 years of diocesan policy, announced the change to priests at a meeting earlier this month. A committee will report today on details.

[lrslattery]

Good news for the faithful in Phoenix.

[B Knotts]

Excellent news! I have been praying for this.

My mom lives there, and this might bring her back to the Church. She just can't relate to the new Mass.

[Maximilian]

Good news bump!

Here is a bishop who knows how to start off on the right foot. Let's hope that this is an omen of more to come!

[TheSpottedOwl]

This is good news! I sure do hope that this is a sign of good things to come.

[Unam Sanctam]

I'm glad to see a bishop implementing Ecclesia Dei Adflicta rather than thumbing their nose at the Pope.

[johnb2004]

Wow. A new bishop and he takes a stand like this. I am impressed.

[netmilsmom]

I have a question. When they are saying, Latin Mass, to they mean the original mass or the new mass said in Latin. Is the Priest facing the people??

[nickcarraway]

BUMP

[ELS]

They mean the old Mass (a.k.a. Tridentine Mass) and the priest faces toward the altar along with the people.

[Maximilian]

When they are saying, Latin Mass, to they mean the original mass or the new mass said in Latin. Is the Priest facing the people??

The phrase "The Latin Mass" is usually reserved for the traditional Catholic Mass of all time (until Vatican II). Ocassionally it is used to refer to the New Mass done in Latin, which is really a mis-use of the term. In this instance it is clear that Bishop Olmstead is referring to the traditional Latin Mass, and not the New Mass said in the Latin language, since he mentions Pope John Paul II's indult. The traditional Latin Mass is always said facing God. I have seen the New Mass done in Latin both facing the people and also done ad orientem.

[Phx_RC]

God has blessed the Diocese of Phoenix with our new holy Bishop Olmsted.

Let us pray for and support him.

There is a lot of cleanup work needed here starting with most of the occupants of the Diocesan Office.

Then after that get rid of the nine plus catholic priest/religious members of "nolongersilent.org" - an organization of "christian" clergy which promotes homosexuality. NLS is so bad that over 245 pastors and their associates from over 141 Arizona christian churches have signed a statement of "Courage, Clarity, and Charity" at "phoenixdeclaration.org"
The names of NLS members are public and available in two places: "nolongersilent.org" and the March 27, 2003 issue of ECHO Magazine.
Refer to "Gay issue polarizes Valley pastors" by Lawn Griffiths in the 2/19/03 issue of the East Valley Tribune.

Then after that completely replace the personnel of the Diocesan Office of Catechetical Ministry and the Kino Institute.

Do the above and that will be serious progress.

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

Congratulations to the Diocese of Phoenix.

[cyborg]

AMEN

[TotusTuus]

I have a question. When they are saying, Latin Mass, to they mean the original mass or the new mass said in Latin. Is the Priest facing the people??

The truth of the matter is that Vatican II is only now beginning to take effect, just as the Council of Trent took several genarations to take full effect.

For the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church, Latin is the official language. The Order of the Mass promulgated by Pope Paul VI, what others have "nicknamed" the Novus Ordo (not it's official title), can always be said in Latin. In fact, Latin is the normative language. Priests need permission from their Bishops to say this Mass in the venacular language (for America, English), not the other way around. It was never the intention of Vatican II to banish Latin, quite the opposite.

Of course, practically speaking, with a universal indult here in America as well as other countries for the venacular language, the vast majority of Masses are said in the venacular. Additionally, despite the fact that Priests of the Latin Rite are supposed to know Latin, many do not. This excaberates the problem. For English speakers this fact has been especially horrendous due to the incompetent, agenda driven translations that have been used up to this point. This fact is in the process of changing. It will take time.

The indult Mass being talked about here concerns the "Tridentine" Mass as of (I believe) 1962. The Pope allowed an indult for this version of the Mass to be said in the 1980's with the desire that it be widely available for those who wished to worship liturgically with it. Similar to the "Novus Ordo", it has never offically been translated into any venacular so it is obviously said in Latin.

An indult means permission, for at least a certain time (if not more), to lawfully do something not "normative" in the Church. For the Tridentine Mass, it requires among other things, that the individuals participating fully accept the Vatican II Council. It also requires permission from the local Ordinary. That had been the sticking point in Phoenix up til now. It indeed is the sticking point for many Dioceses in this country, as fellow Freepers can and do testify. I can only urge them to patience. Schism is never a valid answer.

Regarding which way the Priest faces, I always understood that the universal rubrics for the "Novus Ordo" actually assumed the ad orientum position of the Priest for the Eucharistic Prayer. The Bishops in America may have requested and gained adapted rubrics for our country favoring the ad populum direction. I'm not clear on that. In any event, either direction is valid. And this, for both Masses. Consider St. Peter's Basilica in Rome and the Tridentine Mass being said there. Actually, the Pope could do both ad orientum and ad populum at one and the same time!

A generation of shoddy catechesis and poorly formed Priests, engineered by a cabal of dissidents trying to mastermind a mid-level takeover of the Church under guise of "post counciliar reform" has caused tremendous harm. The take-over has cracked and is sliding backwards as a new generation comes up to clean up the mess. The 2,000 years of Church history has seen this story played out before.

[el_chupacabra]

What awesome news. As a child of Vatican II, I've had very little exposure to the Latin Mass. Along with the new GIRM changes, our pastor has incorporated a much more conservative liturgy, including more and more Latin and chant. It will not surprise me if our parish eventually hosts a regular Latin mass.

May God continue to bless the great work of our new Bishop!

[NYer]

"This is a step in the right direction," said the Rev. Joseph Pfeiffer, pastor of Our Lady of Sorrows in south Phoenix, which is not recognized by the diocese. But the church must return completely to the old ways, he said, before his congregation will feel comfortable with the Catholics.

Good news for those in Phoenix who wish to celebrate the Tridentine Rite.

Is Fr. Pfeiffer affiliated with the SSPX? What does he mean when he refers to his congregation as not feeling comfortable 'with the Catholics'? Aren't they also catholics?

[B Knotts]

Our Lady of Sorrows appears to be an SSPX chapel.

[TotusTuus]

Is Fr. Pfeiffer affiliated with the SSPX?

I believe so. The Church he runs is not in union with the Diocese, and therefore by extension, not with Rome.

His attitude shows the problem in a nutshell. Okay, so now Phoenix has a legitimate Bishop who is allowing the Tridentine Mass. What are the congregants of this Church going to do now? Return completely to the "old ways"? What are those? Who determines them?

Fr. Pfeiffer is Pastor of the Church, eh? Sounds like he has made himself Bishop and Pope!

The traditionalists on these threads should pay careful attention to what is going on here. In the short term, they say they want the Tridentine Mass to preserve the Church. So, through disobedience, they create their own Church to, you know, "preserve" the Catholic Faith. Only temporarily, understand. Just til they can bring back the "true" worship of the Church. And when it comes back?

This Pastor now has a congregation functionally in full schism with the Church of Christ - and it looks like it will be permanent. It started with an act of disobedience.

[Pyro7480]

I think the return of the Tridentine Mass is a great development for the Phoenix-area Church. I consider myself to be a traditionalist. One thing that is clear from all the discussion about the Traditional Latin Mass. However, to a lot of traditionalists, the problem isn't "just" about the Mass (though it's a very important component). It's also all of the sacraments and the teachings of the Church. Will the new bishop allow the sacraments to be celebrated in the "old" way too? And to Fr. Pfeiffer and his flock: when will you be satisfied?

[ultima ratio]

Of course they are Catholics. The segment you have quoted is the reporter's dumb comment. He/she has little understanding of the traditionalist/modernist conflict in the Church. Not unusual. Catholics in general are clueless about what's going on.