Posted on 03/15/2004 6:40:12 PM PST by narses
Actually, I have not stated my opinion as to whether they were wrong or not. I have merely tried to point out that to attempt to assert from the fact that the Bible has been compiled, that all scripture is contained within the Bible and that anything aside from the Bible isn't scripture, is a position that is unsupported by the scripture contained within the Bible as we have it today.
But you may wish to ask yourself why you feel these godly men were in error.
Actually, I haven't stated or even implied that I feel one way or another about the people involved in the process of compiling the Bible as we have it today.
They were so spiritually immature, Paul called them carnal. That's about as close as it comes to calling them "pagan." Instead he referred to them as spiritual "infants."
One has to be a terminal literalist to think that anyone who is baptized is autoamtically a "Christian."
That is completely inaccurate. Look up when the Bible was canonized and what major revisions and changes it underwent before it took the form you know of.
More importantly, the core Christian theology and doctrines (Trinity, Dual Nature of Christ, etc.) were derived on Sacred Tradition before the Bible existed. The Apostles taught based on Sacred Tradition.
Sola scriptura was not in God's plan for a simple reason that the printing presses did not exist until the 15th century (duh!), that not every Christian can read, that not every Christian can understand, that not every Christian has full resources of scriptural knowledge available.
Protestant sola scriptura holds that no one can tell me or you what the Bible says -- but try interpreting things in a way contrary to the already established human traditions in Protestant denominations (i.e. on issues such as to baptize or not, to immerse or not, is baptism salvation or not, is confession public or private, etc.), just try and see where it leads. Most probably out of the congregation! It leads to breaking up! The Protestants have done a great job atomizing Christianity into some 20,000 odd sects and "churches."
If sola sciptura were the sole path to the Truth, the One, the Only, then one could expect the Protestants to be the most catholic of all Christians -- because they would all agree on everything, for there are no 20,000 "truths" about God, but one.
In short, sola scriptura gets an F grade in my book.
The Apostles taught based on Sacred Tradition.
The Apostles taught what Jesus taught them. Ahy should they do otherwise.
In short, sola scriptura gets an F grade in my book.
Fortunately, ... it's not your book.
Your information is outdated, sir. The true figure is now 20,001. This is on account of what happened yesterday, When Mr. Billy Bob Harkin had a dispute with his pastor, Rev. Bill Sol Peterson, of the First Church of the Limited Atonement. Rev. Peterson had declared in his Sunday sermon that unbaptized babies were assured of salvation. Mr. Harkin, who now calls himself Pastor Billy Bob, of the Holy Church of the Unconditionally Elect, roundly denounced Rev. Peterson's sermon as a break with both scripture and "the biblically based doctrines of the Reformation."
"Scripture is clear," announced Pastor Billy Bob. "God's people have no choice but to adhere to God's Holy Word."
That which Jesus taught, some of which was written down, is the Sacred or Holy Tradition. For the first 400 years of Chirstianity there was no book called a Bible; yet somehow, miraculaously the Church managed to establish orthodoxy and full catholicity in theological concepts and worship without the Bible. The concept of sola scriptura even if one of the Church Fathers suggested it, was simply not possible for practical reasons, just as it is not possible today.
I did not respond to your #186 because there is nothing in it to explain how the Ecumenical Councils established complex Christian theology WITHOUT the Bibe. Your biblical quotes are a mere reflextion of those concepts and not their root. I highly recommend reading the first two Ecumenical Council texts.
With 20,000 (plus 1 and growing)different "true" interpretations of God's Truth? Now, that's something to be boasting about!
Pastor Billy Bob's vision will make him a true success among his flock, no doubt.
You are right -- it's not in just my book. Fortunately, the majority of Christians do not subscribe to the idea of sola scriptura, or to the never-ending schisms generated by Lutheran "Reformation."
For the first 400 years of Chirstianity there was no book called a Bible; yet somehow, miraculaously the Church managed to establish orthodoxy and full catholicity in theological concepts and worship without the Bible.
Perhaps you should ponder on whether what was established was in accordance with what Jesus taught.
Somehow, I don't see the man who all christians acknowledge said the following ...Matthew 6:19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:... would be pleased with the emphasis on power, pomp, and worldly wealth and grandeur that characterizes the Catholic Church, and, to a lesser extent, the Orthodox Church.
20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
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Matthew 8:20 And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.
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Matthew 20:25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:
28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
Jesus seemed to much more concerned that we love ... God and one another.
Such was His commandment ...John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.I highly recommend reading the first two Ecumenical Council texts.
35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
I think that I can stay more on-line with what Jesus taught by reading His words, rather than the words of men.
In my experience, and the church's as well (IMHO), the non-canonized writings of men tend to obscure, rather than make clearer, the very word of God.
The Protestants have done a great job atomizing Christianity into some 20,000 odd sects and "churches."
Protestants are agreed upon the essentials of their faith ... what you might find delineated in the Apostles' and Nicene Creeds. We consider ourselves to be one united church, along with believing Catholics and Orthodox. We worship and serve together, regardless of any denominational differences. We are not so deceived as to believe that all in a family need be exactly the same. There is no schism between us.
In other areas, Protestants are given the freedom to believe and practice as they may ... for instance, as to whether to take the Lord's Supper every service, ... or every week, ... or every month.
Apologies. I stand corrected. I will make sure to include 20,001 from now own but I am afraid that even that figure will soon be outdated and in need of prompt correction.
Pastor Billy Bob's vision will make him a true success among his flock, no doubt.
When bereft of anything more of substance to convey, ... many turn to ridicule.
Something to remember is that Jesus was ridiculed too.
Truly the love of Christ shines through.John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
Corruption spares no one individually. You are comparing human tradition with Sacred Tradition.
In my experience, and the church's as well (IMHO), the non-canonized writings of men tend to obscure, rather than make clearer, the very word of God
Sacred Tradition is not "non-canonized writings." You seem to refuse to acknowledge that the Church Fathers developed theology, and decided what is to be canonized based on their understanidng of the faith, which helped them establish orthodoxy and catholicity, as well as which of the written texts and gospels are to be canonized as the Bible based on unwritten, Sacred Tradition, the oral Teachings of Jesus Christ.
I would not call that "obscuring" the Word of God.
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