"The Passion" Isn't Anti-Semitic, Says Vatican Aide

ZENIT ^ | 2004-03-11

[churchillbuff]

Gentiles who hear the Gospel of Yeshua of Nazareth (including the survival and restoration of the Jewish people in the land of Israel), and reject it, are more prone to antiSemitism than people who have never heard it at all

Well, some of the Epistles, I believe, suggest that hearing and rejecting the Gospel can be a ticket to a place none of us wants to go. As to it laying the groundwork for someone being antisemitic, I guess I don't follow - rejecting the Gospels means thinking that Jesus wasn't God and wasn't such a big deal, so it would be hard to obsess on his execution or anything else to do with him, I would think.

[af_vet_1981]

So, my friend, are you saying, as a Jew, that exposure to the Gospel is potentially harmful?

Do you think the German people were exposed to the Gospel in the years leading up to their choice of the Nazi Party, with Adolph Hilter at the helm, to lead them ?

[af_vet_1981]

I guess I don't follow - rejecting the Gospels means thinking that Jesus wasn't God and wasn't such a big deal, so it would be hard to obsess on his execution or anything else to do with him, I would think.

When Pharaoh hardened his heart there were consequences. Each time he hardened it his hatred for the children of Israel grew. It was not an independent circumstance.

[churchillbuff]

I've been on scores of The Passion threads and the flavor of some of them, the comment on some of them, remind me of Martin Luther's. I find that quite sad.

Yes, and I find quite sad that some of the Jewish posters seem to harbor an anti-christian animosity that almost reminds one of the hatred of Christ and Christianity espoused by the Bolsheviks (many of whom happened to be Jewish). Just as I'm not responsible for Luther's intemperance, I don't hold you responsible for Marx, or for Trotsky or for Beria or other murderers among the communist elite.

[per loin]

I've a question. If Abe Foxman was spotted attending a showing of "The Passion", and treated roughly and impolitely by the crowd, would the ADL claim that to be an act of anti-semitism caused by the belief that the Jews were complicit in the murder of Christ?

[presidio9]

I don't expect to return to FR before Moday, but I wanted to do the two of you the courtesey of responding before I left. I have great respect for the Jewish faith, and for the tone in which the two of you have conducted this debate. That being said, you see the conundrum I have put you in.

If there is some truth to your theory that learning the Gospel may lead to antisemitism, you are out of luck. You have picked the one behavior that Christians are specifically not going to modify. Therefore, it becomes encumbant upon Jews who are worried about antisemitism among Christians, your best friends in the world, to figure out a solution that does not condemn the Gospel or try to modify the story. It says what it says. Likewise, it is encumbant upon Christians to fight any form of persecution, specifically because of what is written in the New Testament, and especially the Passion. Shalom, and have a nice weekend.

[churchillbuff]

Do you think the German people were exposed to the Gospel in the years leading up to their choice of the Nazi Party, with Adolph Hilter at the helm, to lead them ?

I know that the British people who declared war on Hitler had been exposed to the Gospel. They sang christian hymns in their anti-Nazi rallies (while no christian hymns were sung at Nazi rallies). Your hatred of christianity makes you want to overlook how the anti-nazis were explicit in their reference to Christian doctrine, while Hitler was explicit in DENOUNCING christianity. But then, you're a bigot, so I can't expect more.

[churchillbuff]

I have great respect for the Jewish faith

Isn't it sad how many Jewish people - - including some prominent neocons - - are revealing that they don't return the respect? They are equating christianity with hate --- apparently their animosity towards jesus and the religion founded on his worship is pretty deep-seated, but they usually keep it under wraps. The whole episode has been very revealing for me. I think our ancestors were more honest about the divide between Jews and Christianity than a lot of us in this politically correct age want to be.

[af_vet_1981]

I think it gets back to the bizarre Jewish tendency to celebrate persecution as part of the religion.

It is true that many of our holydays commemorate our survival, by G-d's mercies, against those who persecute us. While you may find that bizarre, consider the answer that G-d gave Rabshakeh through Isaiah the prophet. It applies to all those who seek to destroy the Jewish people.

• This is the word which the LORD hath spoken concerning him; The virgin, the daughter of Zion, hath despised thee, and laughed thee to scorn; the daughter of Jerusalem hath shaken her head at thee.
• Whom hast thou reproached and blasphemed? and against whom hast thou exalted thy voice, and lifted up thine eyes on high? even against the Holy One of Israel.

[af_vet_1981]

I think our ancestors were more honest about the divide between Jews and Christianity than a lot of us in this politically correct age want to be.

It sounds like you choose Luther.

[churchillbuff]

It sounds like you choose Luther.

Nope, I'm not a Lutheran. But I do believe in being honest about the fact that there are a lot of Jewish people, like yourself, who don't like christianity. This is a fact that a lot of people don't want to admit, because it's politically incorrect to admit it. Saying something that's true doesn't make me anti-semitic (as hackneyed as it sounds, I've always had many Jewish friends) , but I don't believe in glossing over reality. And anyone who reads your posts knows I'm right about the existence of anti-christian bigotry in some parts of the Jewish community.

[af_vet_1981]

Just as I'm not responsible for Luther's intemperance,

Intemperance ?

Intemperance ?

Luther was evil. He hated the Jewish people.

I don't hold anyone responsible for Luther unless they speak about the Jews as he spoke.

[churchillbuff]

all those who seek to destroy the Jewish people.

Of course ESther was a savior against an attempted holocaust - - - long before christianity came on the scene - - a fact that those who'd blame antisemitism on christianity somehow never get around to explaining. (Likewise their anti-christian "theory" can't explain antisemitism in the Moslem world)

[churchillbuff]

I don't hold anyone responsible for Luther unless they speak about the Jews as he spoke.

Good, so stop blaming people like Gibson - - who doesn't speak that way - - - - and most other Christians, who also don't.

[af_vet_1981]

But I do believe in being honest about the fact that there are a lot of Jewish people, like yourself, who don't like christianity.

You present your assertion as a fact. Were I like you, I would put words in your mouth and call something a fact. But I'm not like you. I'll let your words stand on their own.

[af_vet_1981]

so stop blaming people like Gibson - - who doesn't speak that way -

Hutton Gibson does speak that way.

[churchillbuff]

so stop blaming people like Gibson - - who doesn't speak that way - Hutton Gibson does speak that way.

Blaming a son for his father is a blood libel - - like blaming all Jews for the wrongs of Caiaphus.

[churchillbuff]

You present your assertion as a fact.

My assertion is that you - - along with Safire, Rich, Krauthammer and some others who have revealed their truth thoughs about the Gospels - - don't like christianity. I said nothing more, nothing less. As to whether or not this is a "fact," readers need only review your posts to know.

[af_vet_1981]

Of course ESther was a savior against an attempted holocaust - - - long before christianity came on the scene - - a fact that those who'd blame antisemitism on christianity somehow never get around to explaining.

Yes Hadassah was a heroine and savior. Had she not found her courage, G-d would have raised up another savior. But you said "I think it gets back to the bizarre Jewish tendency to celebrate persecution as part of the religion."

I will explain it. Those who hate the Jewish people, whether they call themselves Christians, Moslems, or some other label, are driven by an evil, ancient, unholy hatred that never sleeps.

• If it had not been the LORD who was on our side, now may Israel say;
• If it had not been the LORD who was on our side, when men rose up against us:
• Then they had swallowed us up quick, when their wrath was kindled against us:
• Then the waters had overwhelmed us, the stream had gone over our soul:
• Then the proud waters had gone over our soul.
• Blessed be the LORD, who hath not given us as a prey to their teeth.
• Our soul is escaped as a bird out of the snare of the fowlers: the snare is broken, and we are escaped.
• Our help is in the name of the LORD, who made heaven and earth.

[Polybius]

I've a question. If Abe Foxman was spotted attending a showing of "The Passion", and treated roughly and impolitely by the crowd, would the ADL claim that to be an act of anti-semitism caused by the belief that the Jews were complicit in the murder of Christ?

Hmmmm.....Is that a trick question? < /paranoia>

Well, I don't know if that incident happened or not. But, here is my opinion:

It would seem to me that, if someone makes a living calling other people bigots, he would not get a very friendly reception from those who are the object of his slander. If an organization's finances depend on the illusion of persecution, they will take such an incident to be proof of the bigotry that they claim exists. Thus, a self-fulfilling prophesy.

However, I would hope that Christians who go to see "The Passion" would conduct themselves as true Christians, turn the other cheek, and treat Abe Foxman with courtesy and respect.

There are other places for attack, ridicule and tearing apart with no mercy:......One of those being FreeRepublic threads. ;-)