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To: Dr. Eckleburg
However, a Calvinist does not see these two concepts as equal.

I never said they were equal, just that it is not knowable by us how they work together. You try to present as cut-and-dried what is in essence a mystery.

The feelings of our unfettered abilities are part of our fallen, human natures.

We are free. It is not an illusion, it is not a consequence of our fallen nature. It is a gift from God. On this we will simply never agree.

what does it benefit you to know that all is orchestrated by God? Apart from your assurance of salvation. To what aim is this insistence?

When you roll out of bed in the morning, do you strive to try to serve God's will by doing good or do you realize that your philosophy makes this a ridiculous notion? Whatever you do, whether it be kiss the wife or kill the children, is exactly what God decided that you should do. I see where this is a comforting thought, but it is an insult to the gift of awareness that God has given us.

We struggle to reconcile our grasp of God's sovereignty with our "feelings" of freedom.

What does that mean? And how can you do it? I would say we struggle to have our will be God's, to do what God wants of us with our lives. It's not an intellectual exercise of trying to reconcile the "apparent" reality of your freedom with God's iron-clad control over your actions.

SD

2,639 posted on 04/08/2004 8:29:33 AM PDT by SoothingDave
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To: SoothingDave
Whatever you do, ... is exactly what God decided that you should do.

And the logical consequence of this is that, if you do evil, its because God decided that you should. Since free will is an illusion, even if a very complex one, this makes God responsible for evil.

2,641 posted on 04/08/2004 8:45:44 AM PDT by malakhi (L'shana haba'ah b'Yerushalayim!)
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To: SoothingDave
We are free.

Can you fly? Can you not sin? Can you live forever? Will you live one more second than the life God has allotted to you?

I understand your questions about "what good does it do you to believe that God's sovereignty trumps human free will?" I imagine just about every Calvinist started out as an Arminian of some sort and asked that same question. I did. Most of the Calvinists I know did -- "What good does it do, when during the day it feels like our choices are limitless?"

But you're correct in sensing this is the wrong question. If our lives are truly God's creation, and if God is truly God who loves us, then we actually CAN understand something of this reality. And if God has given us this perception, there must be some good in it.

And there is. Spectacularly.

The good that comes from knowing God is in complete control is that I actually believe the 23rd Psalm. The Lord really is my Shepherd. I really do not want for anything, secure that the Father will not forsake His children; that Christ's sacrifice was complete and saved me fully and for all time; and that for those who love God and follow Christ, there is no fear of death.

Calvinists "roll out of bed in the morning" and work to bring fruit to the fields and glory to His name because He told us to. He said if we love Him, we will do this in His name. Those who love Him, can do no less.

It sounds well and good to say, like so many have always said, "we struggle to have our will be God's." Of course it feels that way. But can the clay say to the Potter, why have you made me thus? That Scripture means something. Every breathe every human being takes in and exhales is God's will. That is the over-riding reality which trumps all our "feelings," and thanks to God's mercy, we actually ARE able to have some comprehension of this apparent mystery.

...comforting thought, but it is an insult to the gift of awareness He has given us.

You position this "gift of awareness" as greater than God Himself. I firmly believe my "awareness" that He is God and I am not, surpasses any "awareness" that I am unfettered by His will.

I understand your questions. "What good comes from believing this?"

The good is simple. Unlike so many, who say that unless the bushman or the imbecile or the week-old baby "is blessed by the Church," or "makes a public statement of faith," or "hears the word and believes," I know that salvation depends on God's mercy alone, and not on ANYTHING anyone might do to achieve it.

I know that none of us knows the names of the elect. But from Scripture, God's inspired Word, I know the wheat and tares look alike until the harvest. I know the thief on the cross received his faith as he gasped his last breath. But I know that the name of the thief had been written in the Book of Life from before the foundation of the world, and thus, I know that NOTHING could erase his name. He was a lowly, sinful thief whose empty life was ending in pain and fear. But as he died, he was regenerated. His heart was reborn by faith in Christ as God, and he believed. He did not come to this conclusion on his own. It was an "awareness" that was thrust upon him. He could do nothing else, but exclaim Christ's divinity on the same day he entered Paradise.

But you and I are so much more fortunate than the thief. We've read Scripture with the Holy Ghost as our page-turner, and we KNOW we've been saved by the redeeming blood of Christ ALREADY. We've been shown the words that say clearly to our brains "Relax, and know that I am God."

"But now, thus says the Lord, he who created you, O Jacob, he who formed you, O Israel: 'Fear not, for I have redeemed you: I have called you by name, you are mine. When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; and through the rivers, they shall not overwhelm you; when you walk through the fire you shall not be burned, and the flame shall not consume you. For I am the Lord your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior.'" - Isaiah 43:1-3.

How much clearer does the "comfort" need to be?

Our faith is an outward sign of our redemption; not a ticket to purchase our redemption. Christ PAID the price. We ARE His. And EVERYHING we understand about our lives must come from this singular awareness.

If it's God's will, it already is, and has always been, and will forever be.

Or else He's not God. He's a nice old man in a white beard. He's Santa Claus.

2,699 posted on 04/08/2004 12:06:13 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg (There are very few shades of gray.)
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