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To: SoothingDave
Where you guys err is by emphasizing the one to the exclusion of the other.

I don't have much time, so I'll quickly respond to this part first and get back to you with your other questions.

Calvinists accept both concepts of "God's sovereign and complete control of His creation" and human "free will" within the constraints that are naturally a part of human existence, i.e. man cannot become invisible; jump off a building and fly away; work his own salvation, etc.

However, a Calvinist does not see these two concepts as equal. Rather, the very acknowledgment of the vastness of God's being necessitates that the concept of God's sovereignty trump everything man knows about existence. It is the motivating reality of all time and space. Accurate words to describe God's complete orchestration of His creation cannot be found in human vocabulary.

"And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you." -- Exodus 3:14.

This is the realization that motivated the Reformation and compelled Augustine, Calvin, Luther, Knox to restate the obvious -- "Salvation is of the Lord" and God's plan of creation was put into place from before the foundation of the world. He has always known the End from the Beginning.

If God is truly omniscient, then reality as God has structured it is not as man understands it in his daily life. The feelings of our unfettered abilities are part of our fallen, human natures.

We struggle to reconcile our grasp of God's sovereignty with our "feelings" of freedom.

And we generally miss the comfort that comes with this understanding.

2,636 posted on 04/08/2004 8:16:24 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg (There are very few shades of gray.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
However, a Calvinist does not see these two concepts as equal.

I never said they were equal, just that it is not knowable by us how they work together. You try to present as cut-and-dried what is in essence a mystery.

The feelings of our unfettered abilities are part of our fallen, human natures.

We are free. It is not an illusion, it is not a consequence of our fallen nature. It is a gift from God. On this we will simply never agree.

what does it benefit you to know that all is orchestrated by God? Apart from your assurance of salvation. To what aim is this insistence?

When you roll out of bed in the morning, do you strive to try to serve God's will by doing good or do you realize that your philosophy makes this a ridiculous notion? Whatever you do, whether it be kiss the wife or kill the children, is exactly what God decided that you should do. I see where this is a comforting thought, but it is an insult to the gift of awareness that God has given us.

We struggle to reconcile our grasp of God's sovereignty with our "feelings" of freedom.

What does that mean? And how can you do it? I would say we struggle to have our will be God's, to do what God wants of us with our lives. It's not an intellectual exercise of trying to reconcile the "apparent" reality of your freedom with God's iron-clad control over your actions.

SD

2,639 posted on 04/08/2004 8:29:33 AM PDT by SoothingDave
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