A Fireside Chat with Cardinal George

myself | 8 March 2004 | myself

[Barnacle]

Great report. I'd say you have a future in this realm.

[Barnacle]

Oh Gawd..

I doubt that He likes his name misspelled any more than its use in vane.

[StAthanasiustheGreat]

Ninenot,

True, the State has no power, that doesn't mean they won't seize such power. The Cardinal actually refered to the US today as a Totalitarian State, because the State now deems itself to have the power to define something it has no power to define (Marriage), and no longer is the law the protector of the voiceless, now it is the protector of individual rights, hence the change in legal arguments. I agree, the State has no power on these issues, that doesn't mean the state won't try to seize it.

[Barnacle]

George has a conservative appeal for some reason. Do you remember where those 23 or so sodomite priests wrote that open letter? George hardly came down on them.

You didn't sense the iron hand within that velvet glove? I'll be amazed if they write another "open letter".

[madprof98]

. . . the result is two churches. One a state sponsored Catholic Church and the other an underground Catholic Church. His actual timeframe was ten years.

Thanks so much for the report! I'd say this is the direction the Church is taking across the Western (post-Christian) world. Ten years seems a little soon, but ten years ago, would anyone have imagined there would be a real chance of gay marriages becoming the norm? For that matter, in 1963 would anyone have imagined large numbers of Americans would defend partial-birth abortion as a basic human right? It would have sounded "hysterical," I suppose.

[redhead]

"His most sobering comment concerned the status of the Church in twenty years. He foresees the Catholic Church being forced underground as in China (with less physical persecution)."

This is very interesting. Whenever I meditate upon the Church in America, I always see it as becoming an "underground church." I don't know how it will come about, or any other details, but I always see it as being forced to celebrate "in the catacombs."

[WOSG]

I called you neither. I say you validate the liberal secularist arguments by believing the lie that mere pursestrings give Govt some writ to invoke liberal securalist values into religious organizations. They dont and you should reject that false and dangerous doctrine.

This idea that Govt has to make everything it touches secular is precisely the agenda of the ACLU for decades, and you play right into it. Sad for our country that well-meaning folk like you are so easily gulled and fooled.

[WOSG]

"I don’t think there would be riots. "

I agree.

The Massachusetts Supreme Court's 4-3 decision last November to force that state to accept same-sex marriage ignored the text, meaning and original intent of their state Constitution. The activist judges neglected their duty to interpret the law and instead over-reached by inventing law. The out-of-control court created an out-of-control issue.

Did they riot in the streets when the rule of law was destroyed in massachusetts?

[sinkspur]

I say you validate the liberal secularist arguments by believing the lie that mere pursestrings give Govt some writ to invoke liberal securalist values into religious organizations. They dont and you should reject that false and dangerous doctrine.

I'm just watching what's happening.

People who want the government to get involved in religious schools through vouchers are fools if they don't think this secular trend will continue.

[johnb2004]

And your theology allows errors to be taught and promoted, so that immortal souls may be lead to perdition?

[johnb2004]

I will be amazed if they change anything they do. They will continue to preach error. They will continue to harm souls. All that happened was that George sent a cryptic letter that was hardly a forceful blow.

[Salvation]

**His most sobering comment concerned the status of the Church in twenty years. His foresees the Catholic Church being forced underground as in China (with less physical persecution).**

I have been predicting this for many, many years.

[Salvation]

Welcome to FR! May God bless you abundantly.

[k omalley]

Malachi Martin in "Windswept House" and on his tapes has made so many accurate predictions that it is almost scary. One of the predictions he made on his tapes was that the Church, meaning the faithful church, would be forced underground in the not so distant future.

[StAthanasiustheGreat]

The more I think about it, and believe me, I've had it in my mind a great deal (not a good thing when one should be writing papers and studying for exams), the more I think that it wouldn't be that horrible a thing for the Church. The first 300 years of the Church (under Persecution) produced some of the greatest apologists, theologians, bishops, and martyrs who remain with us to this day in their memory and actions preaching and witnessing to the Truth. Maybe what this New Evangelization of the Church requires is a new generation of apologists, theologians, bishops and martyrs inspired by persecution to spread the faith. Just a optimistic thought to an otherwise bleak topic.

[only1percent]

Gay "marriage" is like Female "priests." In the first case, the State does NOT HAVE THE POWER to declare such a "marriage;" in the second, the Church DOES NOT HAVE THE POWER to effect such an "ordination."

The state certainly has the power to redefine civil marriage as it pleases. For example, fathers used to be able to prevent the marriage of their daughters to men they deemed unsuitable, and, upon marriage, husbands gained complete legal and financial control over their wives. Divorce required the consent of both parties and was difficult to obtain even then. The change in all those rules, in the aggregate, changed the nature of civil marriage nearly as much (and maybe more) as allowing gays to marry would.

And, just as it does now with polygamous unions, the Church can determine that some civil marriages are not entitled to be recognized as natural marriages (to say nothing of not solemnizing them as spiritual marriage.)

[Barnacle]

Many of us saw through the polite semantics to the forceful underlying intent of that letter.

Time will tell if we were wrong.

[johnb2004]

see post # 51.

[WOSG]

Without vouchers, the secular trend will continue.

With vouchers, the secular trend will reverse.

The ACLU is against vouchers because they know that vouchers drives a stake through the heart of their secularization project.