Gibson's Passion forced to find sanctuary

Scotsman.com ^ | February 29, 2004 | Gerald Warner

[ultima ratio]

"It is Mons. Perle that is advising you, not me, but you interpret his advisement in exactly the opposite meaning of his intent. That is all I am pointing out. That is why I think that you are mistaken when citing Mons. Perle's letter to justify your position."

You miss the whole point of the letter. From my perspective, after all the insults, after all the fuming and fussing, the bottom line is that he simply states "HE CANNOT RECOMMEND" my attending an SSPX Mass. To which I respond, I couldn't care less what someone like himself might merely RECOMMEND--someone who has never been a friend of traditionalism, who had himself assisted in the devious put-down of the FSSP, who has so obviously loathed the SSPX from day one. The bottom line is he DARED NOT FORBID IT. That to me says it all.

Even more, it is ludicrous that he should have implied that it would only be sinful if one attended such a Mass out of some spirit of schism, but it would not be sinful if one attended to increase one's devotion. This is amusing for two reasons: first, because the SSPX and its adherents have been fighting the charge of schism from the get-go. Only those who despise us make this claim--getting their jollies by hurling the "schismatic!" epithet--people like Msgr Perle--and copycats like yourself. Second, an even bigger joke is the monsignor's grudging admission that devotion may be found perhaps more readily in an SSPX chapel than elsewhere in the Church these days. We're making some progress if even he has finally admitted as much.

[TradicalRC]

The only encyclical I read from cover to cover was Fides et Ratio and I found it rather cogent and profound.

[Tantumergo]

"however I have heard of indult masses with the words of consecration changed (pro multis to pro omnibus)"

Do you also believe that Elvis is alive and well on Mars?

Even the Latin of the N.O. has "pro multis" rather than "pro omnibus" - it has simply been falsely translated in the English version.

"only the priest being allowed to communicate with a host consecrated at the indult mass. For the congregation, the priest is required to use hosts consectrated at a Novus Ordo mass."

Would you also like to buy a bridge in Brooklyn that I own?

Do you really think that any priest who has the guts to say the traditional Mass in today's Church would not have the guts to ensure that everybody communed with hosts consecrated at that Mass?

Please!!! The abuses in the N.O. are quite bad enough without people inventing new ones or trying to besmirch indult Masses by association!!!

[TradicalRC]

Interesting corelations, I must admit, but recall that Christ knew that Peter would betray Him three times; he STILL gave him the keys.

[TradicalRC]

Two weeks ago, Lapin predicted that the film "will become famous as the most serious and substantive Biblical movie ever made" and that "the faith of millions of Christians will become more fervent as Passion uplifts and inspires them". Pity no Catholic bishop has gone on record in equally enthusiastic vein.

I believe that there is an old school definition of a liberal that says he is a person who refuses to take his own side in an argument.

Pity. Sometimes your own position is absolutely the right one. It sort of dovetails into the definition of a fanatic as one who redoubles their efforts after having lost sight of his goal.

The Church has historically stood against the more egregious extremes of liberalism such as communism, socialism and fascism. However, as the world's disenchantment with those more explicit versions of secularism becomes apparent, we now face the more daunting challenge of the softer secularisms, such as environmentalism, liberalism and feminism, to name just three heads of the Hydra.

This will call for an ever increasing discipline in all fields of argument: As Catholics we need to have better logic, better rhetoric and better empirical evidence. As well as other aspects of culture, notably the world of Art which has become a sub-culture which constantly attacks Christian culture and absurdly tries to lay the blame for the sins of modernism and "post-modernism" at the feet of devout Christians.

[St.Chuck]

Please!!! The abuses in the N.O. are quite bad enough without people inventing new ones or trying to besmirch indult Masses by association!!!

Thank you.

[St.Chuck]

Only those who despise us make this claim--getting their jollies by hurling the "schismatic!" epithet--people like Msgr Perle--and copycats like yourself.

So Mons. Perle "despises" you, yet you wish to take cover behind his letter. Interesting tactic.

Second, an even bigger joke is the monsignor's grudging admission that devotion may be found perhaps more readily in an SSPX chapel than elsewhere in the Church these days.

Another interesting maneuver. The monsignior nowhere implies that "devotion may be found more readily at an SSPX" chapel. That is your subjective spin.

From my perspective...

I am glad that you concede that the perspective which you espouse is yours and is prejudiced by your subjectivity.

You have also failed to deny the general assertion that SSPX adherence is not entirely a devotional act in some cases, most notably yours, so I will take your silence as agreement and move on.

[Maximilian]

Please Max,get a copy of "The Final Conclave" by Malachai Martin.

I read it many years ago. Don't remember too much. Probably most of the roman a clef elements went right over my head at the time.

I think you will see that he has been a great Pope and tried against tremendous odds to give us back our Church and I think he will succeed in our lifetimes.

That is the last thing this pope wants. He has stated publicly time and time again that he is committed 110% to the implementation of Vatican II. From this principle he has never deviated one iota. Never in any way has JPII ever indicated in the slightest that he wants to return in any way to the Church as it was before Vatican II. If someone were to say that JPII is trying to return the Church to the way it used to be, he would accuse that person of slander, and rightly so.

[autopsy]

Your reasons are political, not devotional, because the indult is available to you.

As a Catholic, the Mass is a right not a privilege. It is our nourishment and our sustenance. Nobody has the right to withhold it from us - just like a mother cannot deny her baby the sustenance it needs.

The Tridentine Mass was never abrogated. Attending the indult sends the message to Rome that you agree the Mass was abrogated and that you agree that special permission is required to assist at the Mass that was codified for all time by Pope St. Pius V.

There's a reason it's called the 'insult'.

[Siobhan]

My husband's work has taken us Down Under. At the moment I am back stateside visiting my daughter Maeve and my brand new grandson. And soon my son Finn and my dear daughter-in-law Aileen are to have their first child, a girl, who they will name Mary Rose. So I packed up my little ones and we all flew back home for this time of joy. Very soon my husband ("Himself") shall arrive and lay eyes on his new grandson. I look forward to that moment more than I can say.

[Siobhan]

Cardinal Pell - how I admire him. I wish more people would add him to their intentions.

[Viva Christo Rey]

Schismatics, voodoo witch doctors, animists and zoroastrians are all outside the visible Church militant.

Yes, as are heretics. I think the point the other gentlemen were making, or at least the point I wish to make, is this:

they are all outside the Mystical body of Christ, His true and Immaculate Bride, the Roman Catholic Church -- but they run wild, make that run, pollute and demoralize the "church of Vatican 2".

One is of Christ and the other is satan's aping of it, as surely as in Mel's film satan held the antichrist to ape and blaspheme the Madonna and Child.

[ultima ratio]

Look, make up your mind. You were the one who wanted proof that I was not prohibited by the Vatican from attending SSPX Masses. Now you argue I'm the one who is taking cover behind Perle's letter, despite the fact I have no use for him or whatever he says. I cited him because I know people like yourself are more impressed by a Vatican letterhead than you are by the faith itself.

[autopsy]

This is not a political statement?

Using the Mass like it's a carrot to dangle before starving Catholics is political. The only problem is, lots of us are not partaking of this poisonous lure.

[Hermann the Cherusker]

ECCE homo

Ecce Agnus Dei: ecce qui tollit peccata mundi

There is an interesting literary parallelism between these phrases that never occurred to me. At the beginning, St. John introduces Jesus as the Divine Victim when he is many years from the Cross. At the end, just before His death, Pilate introduces him as the Man.

[SuziQ]

Our Assoc. Pastor did Mass and the Sacrament of Penance for our Parish Confirmation retreat last night and he encouraged all the kids to go see the movie. He said it was brutal, as was expected, but that it was very powerful and showed the depths of Jesus's sacrifice.

[Salvation]

Also Bishop Donoghue in Atlanta wrote a letter encouraging Catholics to see the movie.

[Salvation]

Glad you got to see the movie. Wasn't the scene with Mary and Mary Magdalene mopping up the blood just heart-wrenching?

[sfRummygirl]

Hiya!
Yes, Satan does work like that. Just like the scene where satan is mimicking Madonna and child, walking across from Mary.
That Unitarian Universalist stuff is just like that. If it doesn't 'work' for you, start your own thing, man. Garbage.

I've got my eye on the 4th, still praying for you!