Posted on 02/24/2004 12:46:27 PM PST by Hank Kerchief
Rebecca Hagelin asks, "Can you handle the Truth?" in today's, WorldNetDaily. "If you only go to the movies to be entertained, don't go see The Passion of the Christ," she said, adding "but if you want to experience an artistic achievement beyond any scale you could imagine, you must see The Passion of the Christ.
If the portrayal of death and suffering are now, "an artistic achievement beyond any scale you could imagine," Sadam Hussein and the Taliban have been greatly misjudge. They were only misunderstood artists. Instead of having our stomachs turned at the images of Taliban atrocities and Sadam's sadistic tortures we should be exulting in these images of such artistic importance.
The only real difference between glorying in the portrayal of suffering and death in Gibson's film, or the actual images of its modern day counterpart, is that Gibson's is a fake. That does not deter the superstitious masses who hold suffering, pain, and death as their highest ideals, however. It is what their God, whom they believe condemns the vast majority of mankind to eternal torment and suffering, teaches them. Of all the things one might place a value on, the thing their God values above all others is suffering and death.
Of all the things their God might have accepted as payment for man's salvation, it was not Jesus' healing the sick, or feeding the hungry, that was valued. Their God would settle for nothing less than the most excruciating pain, pointless suffering, and agonizing death possible as "payment." What kind of God places such a high premium on such evil?
Rebecca describing the experience of 5000 people who watched the film, said, "We were not entertained. We did not laugh. We did not leave relaxed." In other words, they did not enjoy the film, they suffered it. Rebecca regards suffering a virtue. She said about her discomfort watching the film, "the flogging scene didn't end quickly ... so why should it end quickly for me as a mere observer?"
Because, Rebecca, suffering is evil. Pain and death are not virtues, they are the opposite of all human life is about. The purpose of life is not to pain and anguish, the purpose of life is joy and happiness.
We have no doubt, Rebecca is correct to say, "The Passion is powerful – it is reality," because the world is full of suffering and brutality, made possible by the very kind of perverted psychology that not only accepts suffering, but positively worships it.
It cost Jesus his life’s blood to enter Hades and save us, but it wasn’t a payment to anybody.
Yes. That is exactly the Biblical teaching, or at least very close. The death of Christ is never described in Scripture as a "payment", but always as, "wages" received, and the formula is always, he "bore" our sins (or the consequences of them) for us. The early American theologian and evangelist Finney described the atonement both literally, as a "covering" for sin (the meaning of the Hebrew word from which it is derived, cofer I believe) and metaphorically as the purchase of a universal amnesty for all those willing to throw down the arms of their rebellion against God (repentance) and to be reconciled to Him (obedience).
Thanks for being a reasonable influence in the midst of irrationality.
Hank
Quite possibly, but if you feel that way, your response seems more detailed than necessary; but I certainly do not object to anyone expressing their views, even if it is only to refute what they themselves believe is not worth refuting.
You might review the thread for the conversation between MarMema and me. At least MarMema understands the theological significance of the article which was obviously written so those who have eyes and do not see, and those that have ears and do not hear, should not understand the truth that was its object.
By the way, suffering does not "equal" evil, but suffering is always evil.
Hank
Hank
"It is the Church's spiritual teaching that God does not punish man by some material fire or physical torment. God simply reveals Himself in the risen Lord Jesus in such a glorious way that no man can fail to behold His glory. It is the presence of God's splendid glory and love that is the scourge of those who reject its radiant power and light."
Thus the Orthodox church rejects a God who punishes, but sees that separation from God is pain enough for those who chose rejection, once they see Whom they have rejected.
Some Orthodox believe that in the end God will have such incredible mercy that even those who rejected him will have another chance. This idea winds throughout Russian and Greek literature, particularly in folktales - such as Grushenka and her onion, a classic example of Orthodox belief put into a tale (Dostoevsky).
You're welcome. The posted article seemed a bit more needy than most.
At least MarMema understands the theological significance of the article ...
No offense to your or MarMema if I don't consider a conversation between the two of you a reliable indicator of theological significance. I find MarMema's attempt to engage you regarding the article in question quite charitable on his part, even if misguided.
By the way, suffering does not "equal" evil, but suffering is always evil.
Depends on what the meaning of the word "is" is.
Yes that was a joke.
Seriously, your posted article is a bit less sophisticated than that isn't it? "What kind of God places such a high premium on such evil?" isn't exactly calling for a nuanced view of evil. It's saying "evil - are yor for it, or agin' it?!!" And it rather overtly suggests Christians are either naively or goulishly in the "for it" category.
Silly stuff altogether. I don't know any serious minded agnostics or atheists who would bother with it, unless they assumed it would antogonize others less sophisticated than themselves. And that's more than a little contemptible.
Why are you so open minded to the opinions of nonbelievers yet so hard hearted to the message of unity that the pope has put forward to the Orthodox?
I submit that you have exchanged a sensation of "power and strength" for a sensation of pious superiority. Hardly a worthy exchange.
He [God] hates our sin so much that only bloodshed can atone for it.
Answers the qeustion:
Please explain how suffereing "pays" for anything, and why God is so eager to accept "pain" as a payment.
Now, you may be right, "That's basic Christian theology -- if you don't understand it, then you have no grasp of Christianity," even though I have studied "Christian theology," for over forty years," but, if the above is your answer to the question asked, you have no grasp of simple logic, because it does not answer anything at all.
I suggest you look at MarMema's excellent post here and the link provided. I assure you, MarMema is an excellent student of theology.
Hank
Atheists are simply lost. The pope was setting up a game, as has been shown by his recent Ukraine venture.
But I actually like your pope these days. I just don't want to bow to him.
Oh come now. Your credibility will decline even more quickly here if you persist in these kinds of statements.
I am overjoyed at the prospect of Christians gaining a better understanding of the price of sin. I am heartened that this will lead to a deeper and abiding love of Christ. I see this as a chance to do away with he vending machine god that owes us something because we put in our time at church or reading scripture. I see this hammering home the message that He doesn't owe us anything, He paid the price in full and in so doing offers us, free for the taking the free gift of salvation, a gift we can only be deserving of because of His love and sacrifice. He asks so little and yet we feel so burdened. How far we have fallen.
We focuser to much on the good stuff, the empty cross. We need to be reminded how it came to be empty.
If you receieve answer that you will accept what will it change for you?
Why do you care?
BigMack
Listen to your self! How can the same hands the chastised me for my methods of defending the faith type those words? They may be lost, now, at this moment, but they, as you pointed out are children of God. A detached, academic interest in their opinion without even an attempt at helping them see the error of their ways is as damaging to you as their error is to them. You are far, far better than that!
The pope was setting up a game, as has been shown by his recent Ukraine venture.
He has an obligation to those souls does he not?
But I actually like your pope these days. I just don't want to bow to him.
Sigh...so near and yet so far.
Fair enough. Much easier to find fallacies in the beliefs of others than make assertions of your own.
You really ought to do something about that stuttering problem.
I emailed your post to the "idiot" that is the "author of this piece." He suggested the following three verses:
John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
1 Tim. 6:17 Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy.
1 Tim. 4:8 For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.
Hank
Hank
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