Celebrating "Fat Tuesday" When did it start?

American Catholic ^ | Feb 21 th,2004

[missyme]

Unforunatley "Mardi Gras" is like and event out of "Soddom and Gommorrah now in New Orleans...

[Eala]

But at our church we'll be having a traditional Shrove Tuesday supper.

[The_Reader_David]

Of course in the East, we don't try to eat up all the non-Lenten food in a single blow-out before the Fast: we get a week with no fasting after the Sunday of the Pharisee and the Publican (so we can't boast of fasting twice a week every week), then an ordinary week with Wednesday and Friday fasts, then 'Cheesefare Week' when only meat is off limits in the food department, and then Lent begins on Pure Monday. (With clean faces as Christ counseled.)

Of course, post-Vatican-II, Mardi Gras or Carnivale is a kind of pointless party isn't it?

[drstevej]

The King Cakes are awesome, unless you ingest the plastic baby Jesus.

[LiteKeeper]

For what it is worth - there is no Scriptural justification for Mardi Gras or Lent. These are emmendations by the Roman Catholic Church.

Isn't interesting that the Apostle Paul warned against celebrating days and seasons in his letter to the Colossians, yet this is exactly what the RC does...not just with Lent, but with almost daily feast days?

[ahadams2]

Obviously Mardi Gras (which began as a MUCH more low key sort of thing) has been dragged into the mire as has so much in western society. None the less (and speaking as an Anglican now), it makes about as much sense to accuse Rome of the excesses of Mardi Gras as it does to accuse the Calvinism of the Puritans for the historically recorded acts of vandalism,violence and oppression which some of them committed against members of other denominations between the Reformation and the early colonization of North America.

That being said, it is at best a misunderstanding to suggest that Lent is a celebration. Indeed for those of us in the various historical churches (Anglican, Lutheran, Roman Catholic, and Orthodox) who observe Lent, it is a time of humility and prayer. Lent is intended as a set time in the year in which people seek to understand that Christ's suffering and death were required because of *our* sins.

For all of Lent our liturgies are also modified to reflect that, even though Sunday is by definition a sort of miniature feast day, even on Sundays we are to be remembering and contemplating that He bore *our* griefs and carried *our* sorrows...and by HIS stripes we are healed.

Also, traditionally in Anglicanism (and elsewhere) one abstains from something throughout the time of Lent - usually something which is not essential to one's life but which one likes a great deal - in my case it's often chocolate. The idea here is to use this abstinence as an ongoing reminder that no matter how much I'd like a chocolate cookie, my minor discomfort at not being able to have one is far less than nothing compared to Christ's sufferings because of my sins.

Similarly keeping the fast on Wednesday and Friday (traditionally the intent here was to eat nothing until after Communion on those afternoons; though where such is not available one simply doesn't eat breakfast or lunch) is intended as another one of those reminders. [Reader_David - is Orthodox practice on this similar or different?]

Indeed I would submit that the failure to recognize Lent is one of the ongoing contributing factors to the false triumphalism so evident in some portions of the Protestant spectrum.

In short, focusing on the excesses of a paganized Mardi Gras appears to me as merely an excuse to avoid dealing with the true nature of the Lenten Season, and by doing so one is simply (intentionally or otherwise) avoiding recognizing the depths of one's own sinful and fallen nature.

[The_Reader_David]

Orthodox practice is to fast according to the Lenten rule on Wednesdays and Fridays (except for the week of the Pharisee and the Publican, Bright Week (following Pascha) and the time from Christmas until the vigil of Theophany. (Of course in addition to the four major fasts: Great Lent, the Nativity Lent, the Apostle's Fast and the Dormition Fast, and sometimes modified to allow oil and wine, or fish, oil and wine when a major feast falls on the day.) The strictly observant eat only one meal on Lenten days, and that after the ninth hour (3:00 PM). More commonly the rule of abstinence from all foods derived from vertibrates, oil, wine and strong drink is observed in addition to a lightening of meals form what are usually eaten.

I wasn't really faulting the Latin church for the excesses of Mardi Gras, only for 1. vitiating their traditional fasting discipline at Vatican II, and 2. not providing a lead up to Lent in terms of discipline to ease the faithful into the season of repentence as the Orthodox Church does even back when their ascetic practice was more vigorous--which lack provided the easily paganized last big party just before Lent (which now thanks to 1. no longer even serves as a farewell to meat).

[LiteKeeper]

I seek neither to praise nor condemn Mardi Gras nor Lent. I am merely seeking the historical roots of same. I don't see anything in Scripture that leads me to believe these are "biblical." So I am simply inquiring.

[Catholicguy]

Matt 9:15 And Jesus said to them: Can the children of the bridegroom mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? But the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken away from them, and then they shall fast. .

Matt 6:16 And when you fast, be not as the hypocrites, sad. For they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Amen I say to you, they have received their reward.

17 But thou, when thou fastest anoint thy head, and wash thy face;

18 That thou appear not to men to fast, but to thy Father who is in secret: and thy Father who seeth in secret, will repay thee.

<>end of quotes<>

Tell us how you in your Church obey Jesus' command to Fast.

[Catholicguy]

Wherever the Catholic sun doth shine,

There's dance and song and good red wine.

At least I've always found it so:

Benedicamus Domino!

(Hilaire Belloc)

I'll be polishing off a few more bottles of delicious Cabernet before Mardi Gras ends. I'll also be supping on rich meats and rich chocolate. I am even thinking of exercising my marital rights.

David, I shall walk outside tonight, face Mt. Athos, take a big sip of a full-bodied Cabernet and say "see ya in the funny papers, sucker."

Have a Blessed Lent and try and reform your ugly habit of always having to denigrate your Latin borthers as a way of elevating your Greek Communion.

All that really does is betray a lack of self-confidence.

[LiteKeeper]

Tell us how you in your Church obey Jesus' command to Fast.

You are begging the question. I asked where in the Scriptures do you find (specifically) "Mardi Gras" amd "Lent" - you have given me verses on fasting. Those verses are true - and to answer your question, we fast when there are times of appropriate need, such as in conjunction with a time of intense prayer - but you have not answered my question.

Colossians 2:16-17 " Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day--things which are a {mere} shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ."

Again, my simple question is: where is the Scripture for "Mardi Gras" and "Lent?"

[Catholicguy]

I'm sorry. "Appropriate time" in regards fasting doesn't appear in my Bible. What version are you using?

[old and tired]

there is no Scriptural justification for Mardi Gras or Lent The Catholic Church does not celebrate Mardi Gras - it is simply a natural reaction (for us Westerners, anway) to a period of self denial. I have always considered the model for Lent as coming from Christ himself. He spent 40 days in the desert fasting and praying. Isn't it obvious that we as Christians should follow his lead?

I wonder why you would go to such pains to find the Catholic Church unBiblical?

[old and tired]

Oops, had a little HTML error. Let me try that again.

there is no Scriptural justification for Mardi Gras or Lent

The Catholic Church does not celebrate Mardi Gras - it is simply a natural reaction (for us Westerners, anway) to a period of self denial.

I have always considered the model for Lent as coming from Christ himself. He spent 40 days in the desert fasting and praying. Isn't it obvious that we as Christians should follow his lead?

I wonder why you would go to such pains to find the Catholic Church unBiblical?

[Catholicguy]

Colosians 2:17 refers to the Jewish distinction of clean and unclean meats and the feasts of the new moon to which false brethren wanted to subject the Colossians.

[Catholicguy]

Now, I answered your question, so, here is one for you. Outside of 2 Peter 3:15-17 (Yep, written by a Pope) name for me a New Testament citation of Scripture which refers to the New Testament.

I'll save you time. You can't. The visible Body of Christ, the Church (That's we Catholics, son) is cited 110 times in the New Testament while "Scripture" is cited 54 times.

Add that to the fact it is we Catholics who wrote the Scripture you use to try and oppose the Catholic Church and you have yourself one knotty problem which you can try to solve during Lent.

P.S. It is said fasting tends to produce clarity of thought.

Have a nice day.

[Harmless Teddy Bear]

In Louisiana, bakers now put a small baby, representing the Christ Child, in the cake;

Ack!

I presume they mean a figurine of a baby

[St.Chuck]

I don't see anything in Scripture that leads me to believe these are "biblical."

I don't see anything biblical about a modem either. Best to just disconnect.