A Freeper Review of The Passion of Christ

Vanity | 2/21/04 | John Fields

[jwalsh07]

Me too. No offense meant. I'll get back to you.

[Ohioan from Florida]

I know this is probably a silly question, but can someone who believes in taking the Scriptures as the only source tell me what the early Christians did before the Bible as we know it was compiled? How did they know they were practicing the one true faith that God handed down? Didn't they have to rely on the verbal word of authoritative figures, such as the apostles as their source?

[JulieRNR21]

But please don't retreat because you think this is a battle, I want us to be on the same team. Please don't feel threatened IN ANY WAY by me.

Jon.....I do not feel threatened. I am just not interested in trying to refute your interpretation of those scriptures.

Your opinion is apparently based on your own intense study of scriptures which is admirable. I am comfortable with my Faith and have no desire to enter into a dialogue over those scriptures or any others you might present.

[Salvation]

**I know this is probably a silly question, but can someone who believes in taking the Scriptures as the only source tell me what the early Christians did before the Bible as we know it was compiled? How did they know they were practicing the one true faith that God handed down? Didn't they have to rely on the verbal word of authoritative figures, such as the apostles as their source?**

Good question.

Hence we have what Catholics call "Holy Tradition." (The information handed down person to person as you describe.)

[truthandlife]

'Passion' ping

[jonboy]

Your original post: Excellent review. However, as a Catholic I feel the need to tell you that Mary is not viewed as 'divine'. She was chosen by God to bear his Divine Son.

Catholics believe that she was given the special gift of an 'Immaculate Conception' meaning that she was born without 'original sin' (the sin of Adam & Eve). She is fully human but born without sin like the rest of us.

The response by Jonboy that wasn't: I am comfortable in my belief that Mary is considered by Catholics to be Divine and have no desire to get into a dialogue about those traditions or any other scriptures that you might present.

I'm just sorry that some people aren't interested in honest discourse. Oh well, you started the discussion, I guess you had the right to end it also.

[DouglasKC]

Well, Joseph must be going just about crazy with how directly God is coming into his life, but he seems to go along with everything the angels tell him. Surely he must have a very strong sense that Mary is a particularly special woman who is deeply loved by God, in order to bear His Son.

Why couldn't the same be said about Joseph? He was visited by angels and honored by God to be the surrogate father of the son of God. He is called a "rightous man" in scripture. Would God entrust the infant Jesus to just any man? Clearly Joseph had to me more than just a mere man. Surely Mary must have known that he was a special man, deeply loved by God, in order to be father to the son of God.

Another point...in order to be our sacrifice, Christ had to live like a man. He had to experience the same temptations as anyone else. Would sibling rivalry be a temptation he would have to go through to be an effective intercessor? Does any human have parents who never have had sexual relations? The answer is obviously "no"...unless you're a test tube baby.

[narses]

THE COMMUNION OF SAINTS: BIBLICAL OVERVIEW

The Mystical Body of Christ, according to Catholicism and universal Christian Tradition before the arrival of Protestantism in 1517, has three levels of existence, and communication and cooperation (in differing degrees) occurs between all of them. Those on earth invoke the prayers of the saints in heaven, honor them as glorified Christians and seek to imitate them. They also pray for the souls in purgatory. Those in heaven pray for the saints on earth and in purgatory. Those in purgatory can invoke the saints in heaven and pray for us struggling with the world, the flesh, and the devil. Protestants are inclined to think that scriptural evidences for the Communion of Saints are entirely lacking, but such is not the case.

1) The "Apocrypha" Perhaps the clearest proofs of this doctrine exist in the books known to Protestants as the "Apocrypha" (called "Deutero-canonical" by Catholics), which Protestants removed from the Bible (the first time this had happened in the history of Christianity). In 2 Maccabees 15:11-16 Jeremiah the prophet prays for the Jews centuries after his death (compare Jer 15:1), along with the deceased high priest Onias. Likewise, Tobit 12:1-22 (especially 12,15) presents Raphael the angel as one of the "seven holy angels, which present the prayers of the saints." Tobit 12:15 is apparently referred to in Rev 5:8 and 8:3-4, which speak of the "prayers of the saints" being offered to God, and in Rev 1:4, which mentions the "seven Spirits." There is plenty of proof, however, in Protestant Bibles, too:

2) Revelation 1:4 "John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace {be} unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne." {cf. Rev 3:1; 4:5; 5:6}

The seven angels participate in the giving of "grace" and "peace" by God, a principle anathema to Protestants. Some Protestant commentators, aware of a certain difficulty here for their position, seek to redefine the "seven Spirits" as the Holy Spirit, but a check with the cross-references above (inc. Tobit) make this implausible. Other commentators accept these spirits as the seven archangels of Jewish angelology, as indeed they appear to be.

3) Revelation 5:8 and 8:3-4 "And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four {and} twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints."

"And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer {it} with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. (4) And the smoke of the incense, {which came} with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand."

The saints (the 24 elders are usually regarded as dead Christians) and angels lay the prayers of the Christians on earth at the feet of God; that is, they are praying for them and acting as intercessory intermediaries. Thus, the propriety of invoking them logically follows from the plain fact of their intercession. This is identical to the Catholic teaching. Protestant commentaries scramble to come up with some alternate version of what is taking place here, straining at gnats, rationalizing, and splitting hairs. It is amusing to find that often these Protestant works will vehemently maintain that the Catholic view is definitely not taught in a particular Bible verse, while rarely offering a plausible or coherent alternate explanation!

Protestantism accepts the superior knowledge of angels and their ability to understand and influence our thoughts (see 1 Cor 4:9), yet illogically deny that we could ever ask them for their aid, since they construct a false dichotomy whereby invocation of any being beside God is somehow always and necessarily idolatrous. Here, in these passages, dead saints are also exercising the same function as the angels. Yet, if we can't ask either type of being for their intercession, it seems that we could not pray for each other either, since the "invocation" of a saint or angel simply means asking them for their prayers to God, not as beings who are capable of answering the prayers in and of themselves. The Protestant argument, then, proves too much and must be discarded.

4) Revelation 6:9-10 "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: (10) And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?" {cf. Zech 1:12}

These dead Christian martyrs are uttering what are known as "imprecatory prayers," pleas for God's judgment of the wicked and vindication of the righteous (e.g., see Ps 35;69;79;109;139; Jer 11:18 ff.; 15:15 ff.; 18:19 ff.; Jesus in Mt 26:53). Thus, dead saints are praying for Christians on earth, and, by logical extension, can be asked for prayers. They are aware of earthly events (Heb 12:1), and are more alive, unfathomably more righteous (Jas 5:16), and obviously closer to God than we are.

They need not be omniscient to hear our prayers, but merely out of time. It makes no less sense to ask for their prayers than to request those of any person on earth. In fact, the prayer above was answered by God who hastens the end of the age (8:1-5). Therefore, if the prayers of the Christians in heaven is so important in this instance, one can only imagine their immense weightiness in the overall scheme of things.

5) Matthew 18:10 "Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven."

The notion that every person has their own guardian angel, who has direct access to God, is strongly implied. If Jesus said He could have asked for the assistance of an angel (Mt 26:53) - and He certainly would not have been worshiping them in so doing - then we, who need their help infinitely more than He, can do the same without necessarily engaging in idolatry (anything can become an idol if we let it). Nor will it do for Protestants to equate the Intercession of the Saints with the communication with evil spirits by means of a medium or other occultic techniques. This is nonsense. The Communion of the Saints is nothing more than the recognition that saints after death (and angels) are more alive than us, aware of happenings on earth, desirous of aiding us, and able to be asked for help and to assist us with their prayer and intercession.

6) Dead Saints Appear on Earth to Interact With Men

Not only does God not want a prohibition of contact between saints in heaven and on earth, but He goes so far as to allow, on several occasions as recorded in the Bible, dead saints to return to earth for this very purpose! These are instances accepted by Protestants, but their implications are only fully developed within Catholicism. We find, for example, Moses and Elijah appearing on the Mount of Transfiguration to talk to Jesus, while Peter, James, and John were present (Mt 17:1-3 / Mk 9:4 / Lk 9:30-31).

Likewise, the two "witnesses" of Rev 11:3-13 are saints who had come back to life, thought by many commentators to be, again, Moses and Elijah, and by others, Enoch and Elijah. Thirdly, the prophet Samuel (not just a demon impersonating him) appears in 1 Sam 28:7-20, as the great majority of commentators hold (the "Apocryphal" book Ecclesiasticus makes this clear - 46:13,20). "Many bodies of the saints" came out of their graves after Jesus' Resurrection and went into Jerusalem, appearing to many (Mt 27:50-53). Lastly, Jeremiah returns to earth (2 Maccabees 15:13-16).

All of these occurrences involve long-dead figures (as op-posed to other resurrections such as Lazarus and Jairus' daughter), and demolish the notion of Protestantism that there is an unbridgeable gulf between heaven and earth - a sort of spiritual "Berlin wall." There is no such bridge, according to the Bible, because there is only one Church and Mystical Body of Christ, and death cannot affect the communion between its members of whatever estate. It's interesting to note that Moses and Samuel, who together appear in two and perhaps three of the five examples above, are renowned among Jews and Christians for their powerful intercession (Ex 32:11-12; 1 Sam 7:9; Ps 99:6; Jer 15:1 - implied after-death prayer).

In all cases, much communication takes place with people on earth. Samuel talks to Saul and Saul replies; Peter, James, and John may have heard Moses and Elijah talking to Jesus (it's unclear); the two witnesses prophesy for three and a half years (obviously including conversation), the resurrected saints of Mt 27 "appeared unto many," presumably talking with them as did Jesus in His post-Resurrection appearances; and Jeremiah spoke to Judas Maccabeus.

In light of these scriptural facts, how could anyone contend that God forbids such interaction, allowing only that between man and God, and men with men on earth? God could easily have disallowed any of these occurrences if they were indeed "contrary to the unique mediatorship of Jesus Christ." In conclusion, we find, then, that all the elements of the Catholic doctrines of the Communion of Saints are undoubtedly found in the Bible, and not just in the Deutero-canonical books, for all to see.

7) The Veneration of Saints Devotions to angels and saints no more interfere and corrupt the incommunicable Glory of the Eternal God and Creator than does the love we have towards friends and relatives. A tender and healthy attachment to the saints will give vent to feelings in the language of hyperbole, just as human lovers wax eloquent in their romantic praises of each other, never intending to literally worship the object of love and affection.

If we honor the memory of political heroes (e.g., Jefferson, Lincoln) with statues, and war heroes with monuments (e.g., the Vietnam Memorial), why can we not honor the great Christian saints and the towering righteous men and women of the Old Testament? We address judges as "Your Honor" and are commanded to "honor thy mother and father" in the Ten Commandments. The saints are still alive and able to influence and assist us.

Thus, the Veneration of Saints is more than merely mental inspiration (although it includes that aspect as well). God somehow takes up into Himself the whole creation and `lives in it,' `moves' in it, and in it `is' (cf. Acts 17:28). The veneration given to angels and saints is essentially different from the worship offered to God. To God alone belongs the adoration of the whole man. But God's glory is also reflected in His children. They are dewdrops in which the sun's radiance is mirrored. They are venerated because God is present in them.

A sound biblical basis for Veneration of Saints can be found in the Pauline passages where the Apostle exhorts his followers to "imitate" him (1 Cor 4:16; Phil 3:17; 2 Thess 3:7-9) as he, in turn, imitates Jesus Christ (1 Cor 11:1; 1 Thess 1:6). Also, we are told to honor and imitate the "heroes of the faith" in Heb 6:12 and ch. 11, and to take heart in the examples of the prophets and Job, who endured suffering (Jas 5:10-11). It has been said that the painter is most honored when his masterpiece is complimented, because he knows that such praise reflects back upon himself (see 2 Cor 3:18).

9) Summary of Biblical Evidences

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
A. Prayers for the Dead

Tobit 12:12; 2 Macc 12:39-45; 1 Cor 15:29; 2 Tim 1:16-18.

---

B. Dead Saints Are Aware of Earthly Affairs

Mt 22:30 w/ Lk 15:7,10 & 1 Cor 4:9; Heb 12:1.

---

C. Dead Saints Intercede For Those On Earth

Jer 15:1; 2 Macc 15:14; Rev 6:9-10.

---

D. Intercessory Mediation of Saints and Angels

Tobit 12:12-15; Rev 5:8 and 8:3-4.

---

E. Dead Saints Appear On Earth to Interact With Men

1 Sam 28:12-15 with Ecclesiasticus 46:20; 2 Macc 15:13-16; Mt 17:1-3 and 27:50-53; Rev 11:3.

---

F. Guardian Angels

Ps 34:7; 91:11; Mt 18:10; Acts 12:15; Heb 1:14.

---

G. Angels Are Aware of Our Thoughts

Lk 15:10; 1 Cor 4:9.

---

H. Angels Participate In the Giving of God's Grace

Rev 1:4.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

The great Anglican writer and Christian apologist C.S. Lewis, in one of his last books, wrote:

". . . devotions to saints . . . There is clearly a theological defense for it; if you can ask for the prayers of the living, why should you not ask for the prayers of the dead? I am not thinking of adopting the practice myself; and who am I to judge the practices of others?"

{Letters to Malcolm: Chiefly On Prayer, NY: Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, 1964, pp.15-16}

http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ530.HTM

[Ohioan from Florida]

I so agree with you that Joseph had to be a special man, and I believe he was, and that God gave him special graces to endure the rigors of parenting the Son of God, and special graces to be the husband of Mary.

As far as sibling rivalry goes, that's a good one! It is my understanding from Catholic tradition that where it talks about Jesus' brothers and sisters, that there was not a word in Aramaic to denote a close relative, such as a step- brother or sister or even first cousins. Herod's strange family is referred to in the same way, and his "siblings" are shown through history to be step-siblings. By contrast, when Elizabeth is described as a cousin of Mary' she is actually a distantly related cousin, such as second or third cousin to Mary.

Either way it looks like Jesus was probably subject to the idea of sibling rivalry.

As far as whether or not any human has ever had parents who did not have sexual relations, I think Jesus qualifies. The rest of us, no.

[narses]

One more:

Cloud of Witnesses: A Biblical Primer on the Communion of Saints

THE INTERCESSION OF THE SAINTS

". . .we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses . . ." (Hebrews 12:1 - RSV)

What Catholics call the invocation or intercession of the saints means not so much praying to saints, as it does praying with them to God. This devotional practice has strong scriptural warrant, much more than Protestants suppose, since they tend to regard it as idolatrous, without trying to understand the biblical and logical rationale for it. The practice existed with development - from the beginning of the Christianity, and was only questioned at the time of the Protestant Revolt in the 16th century. If anyone, then, is to be accused here of introducing a "late tradition," or of "corrupting" Christian doctrine, it must be Protestantism, not Catholicism.

SAINTS IN THE AFTERLIFE ARE AWARE OF EARTHLY AFFAIRS

Dead Christians are unquestionably more alive and holy than we are, since they are with God (Rev 21:27), and they are aware of earthly events (Heb 12:1, 1 Cor 13:9-12). Some have even come back to earth. For example: Samuel (1 Sam 28:12-15), Moses and Elijah (Mt 17:1-3), and "many saints" (Mt 27:52-3). In all these instances, much communication, and even dialogue, takes place. How, then, could such discourse be considered unlawful and idolatrous? Obviously, God allowed these occurrences, so therefore He must have condoned them. Such "traffic" between heaven and earth lessens the artificial dichotomy which Protestants create by the unspoken, uncritical assumption that those in the "other world" have nothing to do with us in this world. This is neither biblical nor reasonable, and goes against the Bible's view of the one Body of Christ, which is not sundered by death or anything else (see, e.g., Rom 8:38-39).

SAINTS IN THE AFTERLIFE PRAY AND ACT AS INTERMEDIARIES

In Revelation 6:9-10, "the souls of them that were slain" pray for those on earth, using what is known as an "imprecatory prayer," as in Psalms 35:1, 59:1-17, 139:19, and Jer 12:20 against the wicked and on behalf of the righteous. In Revelation 5:8-9, the "24 elders," usually interpreted as representing the Church (perhaps the 12 tribes and 12 apostles), act as intercessory intermediaries, presenting the "prayers of saints." This is just common sense, provided one will allow the possibility of its occurrence. Saints in heaven are not just sitting on clouds playing harps, as our cultural mishmash religion would have it. No, they are vitally active in prayer on our behalf. Thank God they are!

ANGELS ARE AWARE OF OUR THOUGHTS AND ACT AS INTERMEDIARIES

Angels are joyful over sinners' repentance - an inner change of heart (Lk 5:10), and it appears that they observe us (1 Cor 4:9). Like saints, they offer the "prayers of the saints" to God as intercessory intermediaries (Rev 8:3-4). Even "grace" itself is said to come both from God and the "seven spirits before his throne" (Rev 1:4; cf. 3:1, 4:5, 5:6). Again, this all follows from spiritual common sense. All Protestants agree that angels (excluding the demons) are benevolent and active on our behalf. So why is it so difficult to believe that they might be praying for us? All loving beings (whether angels or humans) are concerned for other beings, and prayer is one way of expressing that love. Why should mere location on one "side" of death rather than the other have any bearing on that? Love demands otherwise.

GUARDIAN ANGELS

Many Protestants, such as Billy Graham, agree with the Catholic belief in Guardian Angels for each person. This doctrine is largely derived from Matthew 18:10: ". . . their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven." Other scriptural indications: Ps 34:7, 91:11, Acts 12:15 and Heb 1:14. If God has provided this supernatural protection for us, we must not neglect it on the illogical grounds that it somehow detracts from the worship of God. It's foolish to throw off any of God's provisions for us simply because they don't fit into our preconceived notions of theology, oftentimes perpetuated by unwitting ignorance of the magnificent heritage of Christian Tradition.

THE VENERATION OF SAINTS

If saints and angels are so holy and so aware of our affairs, why should we not ask them to pray for us, since "the prayer of a righteous man availeth much" (Jas 5:16)? Protestants say that this raises them to the level of God (thus, the charge of idolatry). But they need not be all-knowing, nor perfect, like God, only out of time and glorified, to hear our prayers. We venerate them (particularly Mary) because of their proximity to God - this is not worship or adoration, which is reserved for God only. St. Paul urges us to "imitate" him (1 Cor 4:16, Phil 3:17), as he, in turn, imitates Christ (1 Cor 11:1, 1 Thess 1:6), and we are told to honor the "heroes" of the faith (Heb 6:12, 11:1-40, Jas 5:10-11). None of this detracts from the Infinite Glory and Majesty of God in the least. Rather, it enhances it, just as the painter is honored when one admires his masterpiece, and just as the dewdrop can reflect the brightness of the sun.
http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ94.HTM

[JulieRNR21]

The response by Jonboy that wasn't: I am comfortable in my belief that Mary is considered by Catholics to be Divine and have no desire to get into a dialogue about those traditions or any other scriptures that you might present.

You are the one who assumed that Catholics view Mary as Divine but that is incorrect....There is nothing in Catholic dogma or tradition that supports your "belief".....as I stated in my previous posts.

That was my main reason for responding to your post. You are the one who didn't address my refuting that Mary is viewed as 'Divine'. You may want to 'debate, dialog, or discuss' (whatever you want to call it) scriptures but that was not my motivation.

[DouglasKC]

As far as sibling rivalry goes, that's a good one! It is my understanding from Catholic tradition that where it talks about Jesus' brothers and sisters, that there was not a word in Aramaic to denote a close relative, such as a step- brother or sister or even first cousins. Herod's strange family is referred to in the same way, and his "siblings" are shown through history to be step-siblings.

It's my understanding that there is a difference in the greek and it is so written. But really my main point was about is experiences and how he had to experience all that we do so that he could be an appropriate sacrifice.

As far as whether or not any human has ever had parents who did not have sexual relations, I think Jesus qualifies. The rest of us, no.

When considering this I go back to the above. All people have had parents who had sex at least once. Nearly all people have had parents who have had sex multiple times.

Heb 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.

Are there temptations associated with perceiving your mother or father as sexual creatures? Are there feelings and emotions to be overcome when dealing with the sexuality of your parents? I guess my point is that someone who is raised in unique circumstances isn't going to have much of a conception of what it's really like to be human and wouldn't seem to fit the spirit of Hebrews 4:15.

[Ohioan from Florida]

I think I see what you are saying, but I'm also not sure. For example, "Are there temptations associated with perceiving your mother or father as sexual creatures?", my personal answer is "No, I've never even thought of that before."

And then this, "Are there feelings and emotions to be overcome when dealing with the sexuality of your parents?, my answer is "Yes, but feelings are not always sins." Jesus felt anger, and even acted angrily when he turned over the tables of the moneychangers. He didn't sin. So I'm not sure where you're going with this line of thinking.

The only thing I can tell you is that in my opinion, sin is like a tangled web, a downward spiral, so to speak, away from God. Some of us have temptations to things but don't give in to those particular ones, whereas other things tempt us to where we do sin. Which weaknesses we each give in to, well, I think that it's possible to not be affected by some things as much as others. I'm not sure where I'm going with this, other than to say if you give in to one type of sin, it's easier to give in again than it is to resist. I think we need God's grace to help us resist the temptation. The temptation might be there all the same. Am I making sense? Is this what you're even talking about?

[jonboy]

To the contrary, you say I didn't address it. I did, several times, here are some repeats:

Dr. Miravalle’s Vox Populi Mariae Mediatrici movement has presented over five million signatures to the Holy See humbly requesting a solemn definition of the Marian titles Coredemptress, Mediatress or all graces and Advocate. A third of the cardinals and over a quarter of the Catholic episcopate have signed the petitions.

The present Holy Father since the beginning of his pontificate has, like his immediate predecessors in the See of Peter, often taught the doctrine of Marian coredemption, and is the first Pope since Pius XI to employ the title Coredemptress in public addresses, where he has used it at least six times.

JOHN PAUL II
GENERAL AUDIENCE
Wednesday 9 April 1997
Dear Brothers and Sisters, Continuing our catechesis on the Blessed Virgin Mary, we are considering her cooperation in the redemptive sacrifice of Christ. All Christians are called to cooperate with God as his fellow-workers (cf. 1 Cor 3:9) in spreading the fruits of the Redemption accomplished on Calvary. But the Second Vatican Council reminds us that Mary's cooperation with Christ, unlike that of other Christians, remains "completely unique" (Lumen Gentium, 61), since it forms a part of the very events by which her Son achieved our salvation.

The basis of this unique cooperation is Mary's divine motherhood and her sharing in Jesus' life, culminating in her presence at the foot of the Cross. In God's plan, Mary is the "woman" (cf. Jn 2:4; 19:26), the New Eve, united to the New Adam in restoring humanity to its original dignity. Her cooperation with her Son continues for all time in the universal motherhood which she enjoys in the order of grace. Trusting in this maternal cooperation, let us turn to Mary, imploring her help in all our needs.

"Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death."

The new Adam brought spiritual life where the old one brought death. What is the new Eve to bring if not the same? Also, she cooperated in the redemptive sacrifice of Christ, according to the Pope. Put another way she is a participant in redemption, put yet another way, a co-redemptor. Plus, she is ascribed "universal Motherhood." If she is the "universal Mother" spiritually how can that not be divine? In what other way could she be a "universal Mother?" That's what I'm interpreting from the words spoken. If there is a problem it seems to be in how they are being communicated rather than how they are being understood by me and others. Surely you can honestly see that it doesn't take twisting to understand his words in that way?

One doesn't have to twist anything to think she seems to be treated as divine.

[beckett]

Surely you can honestly see that it doesn't take twisting to understand his words in that way?

Ah, but you are twisting words. It's evident in all your remarks on the thread, which is why I avoided posting to you. For some reason you are emotionally invested in believing that Catholics consider Mary divine. You are wrong. Period.

Have a nice day.

[Ohioan from Florida]

In what other way could she be a "universal Mother?"

I think you keep misunderstanding it. Catholics view this in a figurative light, that Mary is the Mother of the Church. She was the closest human to Jesus, and there's a lot of wisdom that she can give in understanding our role in the world. She considered herself to be the servant of the Lord, the handmaid of the Lord. God has rewarded her with a special place in Heaven, but she is not divine. Divine to Catholics means that the origin was heavenly, and Mary was an earthly creature. (Ok, I don't know where angels fall into that line of thinking, but we don't view angels as divine either). Perhaps this is something that we won't be able to explain well, or at least to your satisfaction. It's okay to not understand every last detail. That's what growth is all about. In due time, we'll all understand better than we do right now.

[CyberAnt]

Problem: Your fairy tale is not based on scripture. Mary and Joseph had children of their own. How are you supposing Mary got pregnant those times ..??

Mary and Joseph were just normal people who were used by God for a special purpose. That's all!

There is no need to flame you .. you have no argument!

[Aquinasfan]

Be glad to respond to that just as soon as you answer my question. What is the scriptural source for offering prayers to those who have died and are now in heaven?

Your question is based on an unsupported assumption. It begs the following question. Must everything Christians do be found in Scripture? The answer is no. That answer can even be found in Scripture:

2 Thessalonians 2:15

So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings[ 2:15 Or traditions] we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

Regardless of the fact that your principle is wrong and contrary to scripture, here is a good answer from James Akin:

A: Well, aside from the fact that the Magisterium has ruled on the issue and that Apostolic Tradition teaches it (both of which are sufficient to prove the matter), the Bible also teaches it.

In the book of Psalms, which was the hymn book for the Temple in Jerusalem, we sing to those in the heavenly court and exhort them:

"Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Psalm 103:20-21, RSV, as below)

The fact that those in the heavenly court can hear our prayers is also indicated in the book of Revelation, where we read:

"And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God." (Revelation 8:3-4)

Thus those saints who are angels have a role in presenting our prayers to God in an intercessory manner. (Angels are also saints, as indicated by the fact that the Bible applies the Hebrew word for saint/holy one -- qaddiysh -- to them, cf. Daniel 4:13, 23, 8:13. Thus we speak of St. Michael the Archangel, St. Gabriel, St. Raphael, etc.).

Since the Ascension of Christ, when Jesus took the Old Testament saints from sheol to heaven, large numbers of humans saints have also been in heaven, and Revelation indicates they also present our prayers to God:

"And when he [the Lamb] had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Revelation 5:8).

The twenty-four elders represent the hierarchy of the people of God in heaven (just as the four living creatures represent the hierarchy of the angels of God in heaven), and here they are shown presenting our prayers to God under the symbol of incense (which is, in fact, what incense symbolizes in church, since it is a pleasing smell which rises upward).

One might object, saying, "But maybe those weren't prayers to the saints but prayers to God!" This may well be true. However, a person who says this only digs the hole deeper for himself since this would mean that those in heaven are aware of prayers which weren't even directed to them!

In any event, we know that the saints in heaven (whether human saints or angel saints) are aware of our prayers and, based on them, intercede with God on our behalf. Scripture, Tradition, and the Magisterium all agree.

Regarding Luther's non-biblical doctrine of "sola Scriptura," the passage that you're thinking of citing from the book of Revelation refers only to the book of Revelation. That's the book that John was writing. John couldn't have been referring to what we now know as the Bible because the Bible wasn't to be canonized for another 400 years. And then that canon was the one including the above passage, not Luther's abridged version. By what authority did Luther remove books from the Bible? Where in the Bible is Luther directed to remove books from the Bible?

[savedbygrace]

Thank you for the thoughtful reply. I'm tied up with business much of the day today. I'll reply as soon as I can, when I can spend some time on this.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Exactly

Becky