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To: winstonchurchill
If, to the contrary, He does think and act, sequentially, (and, IF the biblical account shows that God has chosen to respect decisions of His creatures), then the determinist model is problematic.

If that is the case, the determinist model has some serious problems. In that I believe that my God is a God of order rather than disorder and that time is from eternity to eternity, God operates within time. Since the history of the world is measured in time as it relates to the birth of Christ, at least since his birth, I don't see how a reasonable person could conclude otherwise.

If swarm Calvinism relies on God operating outside of time, they have a lot more problems than even I thought. It's amazing the contortions they must go through to justify their theology

This also seems rather ironic in that they claim because God predestined some events, that God must have predestined all events. Yet as it relates to time, it is obvious that the history of man is sequential/within time, but they must insist that God operates outside of time because without that assumption, their theology must fail.

I am open to the possibility that I might not understand something about this within/outside of time business, but if I am even in the neighborhood, the determinists are making a huge leap of faith.

35 posted on 02/05/2004 11:27:59 PM PST by connectthedots (Recognize that not all Calvinists will be Christians in glory.)
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To: connectthedots; winstonchurchill
If, to the contrary, He does think and act, sequentially, (and, IF the biblical account shows that God has chosen to respect decisions of His creatures), then the determinist model is problematic.

In that I believe that my God is a God of order rather than disorder and that time is from eternity to eternity, God operates within time. Since the history of the world is measured in time as it relates to the birth of Christ, at least since his birth, I don't see how a reasonable person could conclude otherwise.

You are operating from the assumption that God has to act numerous times, in sequence, in order to interact with His Creation. That is like begging the question.

If we, rather, imagine God to be the Master and Creator of time, He can easiily act "once" (for lack of a better word) to fulfill all of His interaction with the created world. We will experience these interactions sequentially as we move through time. But God, who is not limited to time, and can see and know all things and all times, can simply act from eternity in a single action. Why would one assume that God acted, and then waited to see what happened, and then acted again, and waited again, etc.? This means God has to wait, and if God has to wait, then He is not perfect unto Himself. He is unfulfilled while He is idling waiting for our next action.

If we see a lot of land being cleared, then in subsequent weeks, the lot being levelled, then a basement is dug, and filled. Then a wood frame is erected, and walls and electricals are put into place. Finally, a roof and siding are put on, and the landscaping is done.

We see this play out over several weeks, or months. Yet, we recognize that someone has decided to build a house. Not that a sequence of events had been decided upon sequentially.

SD

39 posted on 02/06/2004 6:34:17 AM PST by SoothingDave
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