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Open Theology: A Response to John Piper by Dr. Gregory Boyd
Biblical Theology ^ | Dr. Gregory Boyd

Posted on 02/03/2004 9:35:26 AM PST by xzins

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To: nobdysfool
That really wasn't what I was referring to. But free will, taken to its logical extreme, would have to allow for that possibility, wouldn't it?

Interesting concept.
I've never seen this carried out to this conclusion before.
If you are up to it please give it a shot.

My point was, even if the will is truly free, it is still constrained by God's Will. Personally, I believe that God is the only One with truly free will. All men have a will that is limited by their nature, their circumstances, God's Laws with regard to the physical realm, and their desires. To argue that free will can overcome those limitations, in and of itself, is sheerest folly.

No question that man is limited within God's laws; be they physical or spiritual. That's why He is God and we are not.

I'm not sure anyone has argued that man's free will can overcome God's will.

I would argue that man's free will is within the realm of God's will.

God is not diminished by man's free will.

61 posted on 02/03/2004 6:35:37 PM PST by PFKEY
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To: PFKEY; xzins; Vernon
God is not diminished by man's free will.

Exactly. Man's free will is given by God.

62 posted on 02/03/2004 6:36:53 PM PST by Corin Stormhands (www.wardsmythe.com)
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To: Corin Stormhands
***John Gill's Exposition of the Bible...James 5:19***

First, you Arminians make appeals to science and fleshy intelligence to discuss God's Omniscience. Now, you intend to spank me with other men's words, and a Calvinist to boot. Don't you think it a little hypocritical to fall upon the Reformed when it suits you, but condemn our theology as false?

Why don't you get back to me with your own exposition of that verse if you want to discuss it and think that I am in error. If you are unable to do this, then all you are trying to do is get one Reformed to contradict another. Guess, what? I'm not going to play.

When you want to do your own expositions, let me know. If you run across any Open Theists (besides winston -- I've already had it out with him about his error), then let me know and I'll be happy to apply the principals of James 5 & 1 John 5. I'll be happy to wade in to see if he can be "pulled" from his error.

Woody.
63 posted on 02/03/2004 6:36:58 PM PST by CCWoody (Recognize that all true Christians will be Calvinists in glory,...)
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To: CCWoody
Calm down Woody. No need to be so thin-skinned. I've made my point.
64 posted on 02/03/2004 6:38:46 PM PST by Corin Stormhands (www.wardsmythe.com)
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To: Corin Stormhands
Man's free will is given by God.

Yes.

The conclusion that I reached regarding free will is that if man has it then God has glory and honour.

If man has no free will then God's glory and honour are just merely empty words.

Without free will, sin is meaingless, consequences become meaningless, judgement is also meaningless.

65 posted on 02/03/2004 6:43:11 PM PST by PFKEY
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To: Corin Stormhands
Given that man has to have a will to make choices, in the course of everyday life, the question is not whether he has free will, but the extent of it, with regard to his relationship (or lack thereof) with God.
66 posted on 02/03/2004 6:43:40 PM PST by nobdysfool (Those whom He foreknew, He predestinated to be conformed to the Image of Christ)
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To: Corin Stormhands
Exactly. Man's free will is given by God.

But even God's will is not as free as some like to make out Man's will to be.

God is not free to act in a manner contrary to His nature, and neither are we.

67 posted on 02/03/2004 6:51:41 PM PST by ksen (This day we fight! By all that you hold dear on this good earth I bid you stand, Men of the West!)
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To: PFKEY
If man has no free will then God's glory and honour are just merely empty words.

God's glory and honour are not dependent upon anything to do with us. He had the same glory and honour before we arrived on the scene.

Please define "Free-Will."

68 posted on 02/03/2004 6:54:49 PM PST by ksen (This day we fight! By all that you hold dear on this good earth I bid you stand, Men of the West!)
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To: ksen
Please define "Free-Will."

Always the best place to start. We all seem to have varying concepts as to what these words mean.

Free-will to me means man's ability to accept or reject God.

69 posted on 02/03/2004 6:58:59 PM PST by PFKEY
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To: ksen
What does the word "glory" mean?
70 posted on 02/03/2004 6:59:52 PM PST by Vernon (Sir "Ol Vern" aka Brother Maynard, a child of the King!)
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To: ksen; xzins; Vernon
God is not free to act in a manner contrary to His nature, and neither are we.

So, then the Sovereign God is limited?

71 posted on 02/03/2004 7:01:02 PM PST by Corin Stormhands (www.wardsmythe.com)
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To: ksen
God's glory and honour are not dependent upon anything to do with us. He had the same glory and honour before we arrived on the scene.

Point taken.

God's glory and honour regarding man and God's plan of salvation for man.

72 posted on 02/03/2004 7:01:29 PM PST by PFKEY
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To: connectthedots
ctd, you get grins for consistency: :>)

And, yes, I do think you're a pretty smart guy.

LOL.
73 posted on 02/03/2004 7:02:11 PM PST by xzins (Retired Army and Proud of It!!)
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To: ksen
Welcome to the GRPL, ksen.
74 posted on 02/03/2004 7:02:39 PM PST by drstevej
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To: PFKEY
These are Boyd's words that explain the basis of the controversy:

Put simply, while many hold that all of the future consists in "definite realities" (everything is definitely this way and definitely not that way) I hold, for biblical reasons, that it partly consists in "indefinite possibilities" (it is possibly this way and possibly that way). As John acknowledges, I unequivocally affirm the omniscience of God. Whatever is real, God knows. John's disagreement with me thus isn't over whether or not God is omniscient. It is a disagreement over the contents of reality, which the omniscient God knows.

75 posted on 02/03/2004 7:10:34 PM PST by xzins (Retired Army and Proud of It!!)
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To: Corin Stormhands
Since you addressed me, to deny God the ability to limit His knowledge makes Him less than God, and contradicts evidence as we see in Jesus. It does not mean He does not have the ability, but rather chooses a particular action for a particulr purpose.

Further,to insist on a relationship not based on the decision of the one loved, is not love...it is one of the most heinous crimes known to mankind.

76 posted on 02/03/2004 7:11:18 PM PST by Vernon (Sir "Ol Vern" aka Brother Maynard, a child of the King!)
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To: CCWoody; Corin Stormhands; xzins
First, you Arminians make appeals to science and fleshy intelligence to discuss God's Omniscience.

As opposed to the swarm "I know it isn't logical, but I believe it anyway"?

I am understanding in that I recognize that God gives each person different gifts and degrees of gifts. Some of us are just more blessed in some areas than others.

77 posted on 02/03/2004 7:21:02 PM PST by connectthedots (Recognize that not all Calvinists will be Christians in glory.)
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To: PFKEY
Free-will to me means man's ability to accept or reject God.

Thanks PF, I appreciate you giving me your definition. I see Free-Will, and I believe the Bible teaches, as a person being free to act according to his nature.

Using your definition: that Man is free to accept or reject God, will we have Free-Will in Heaven? Will we be able to freely reject God if we are in Heaven? If not, does that diminish God in anyway, or mean that Heaven is less perfect than here?

78 posted on 02/03/2004 7:24:46 PM PST by ksen (This day we fight! By all that you hold dear on this good earth I bid you stand, Men of the West!)
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To: CCWoody; Corin Stormhands; xzins
First, you Arminians make appeals to science and fleshy intelligence to discuss God's Omniscience.

Uhhhh...You have some way to discuss God other than with human intelligence? Interesting, very interesting indeed.

79 posted on 02/03/2004 7:27:27 PM PST by Vernon (Sir "Ol Vern" aka Brother Maynard, a child of the King!)
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To: xzins
It is a disagreement over the contents of reality, which the omniscient God knows.

Hardly seems a matter worth disagreement.

I think much confusion is caused by trying to understand God beyound what he tells us in scripture.

The contents of reality?

If the arguements strictly delt with human reality I don't think you would see much disagreement.

The problem comes in when Boyd or whomever attempts to place God's reality within man's reality or man's understanding of reality.

IMHO

80 posted on 02/03/2004 7:27:46 PM PST by PFKEY
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