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The big "thing" here is getting Catholics to recognize that without sounding negative, shrill or otherwise unloving, as those of us who disagree are unually described. In a way, I think the scandal can be used for the exposing, but not many people seem to be willing to take the initiative or don't see the connection. 19 posted on 02/03/2004 4:38:00 AM PST by Desdemona

Well, the questions that need to be raised go beyond just the homosexual and sex abuse scandal issues. This thing with using cells derived from abortions at Georgetown University, for instance, can be seen as a kind of social engineering - desensitizing Catholics to this issue. This is how it always goes down. They set a precedent at some big place (like Georgetown or Notre Dame) and then it trickles down. The experiments in education at the primary school level which got going in the 1960s are now standard throughout America. Now, children of that age are too young to be able to stand up and protest what is being done to them.

It may seem silly or even charmingly harmless to have some sort of funny puppet at Mass. But what this is doing is programming kids to think of Mass as something funny. You can go to places where adult Masses are almost like that. What I dislike about the mentality is that this kind of stuff is forced on people with a fascistic clericalism which is really even MORE RIGID than the stereotyped presentation of what the Church is alleged to have been like before Vatican II. When we read about former sex abusers being involved with these national liturgy committees involved in further experiments with social engineering the Mass according to some sort of weird psycho-social theories, think we should ask questions about this. And the bishops really need to be responsive to the Catholic laity on this. If sex abusers have been involved with tinkering with the Mass, we should ask WHY?

There is something fishy here.

Catholics should demand that the rights of the faithful be protected. We should have the best possible people involved with making decisions about Mass, about the education of school children, and about the way that Catholics issues are handled at the university level. Unfortunately, what we have had for well over 30 years has involved some of the most crackpot liberal nonsense loose on the American post-modern cultural landscape. That is wrong. And this needs to be investigated and exposed for what it is. It's wrong for bishops to sit back and let wacko liberals conduct social and psychological experiments on the Catholic community.

None of this wacko stuff carries the force or authority of the Gospel. People get confused when the clergy present certain types of bizarre ideas, policies or programs. Just because a priest or a bishop (or an ethicist or college president) says something is OK does not mean it is in the best interests of the Catholic community. That applies to liturgy, education, and this bizarre Brave New engineering of cells derived from abortions.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1068813/posts Georgetown U Frankenstein Research

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1068614/posts Georgetown Weird Research Continues

When we read about former sex abusers being involved with these national liturgy committees involved in further experiments with social engineering the Mass according to some sort of weird psycho-social theories, think we should ask questions about this. And the bishops really need to be responsive to the Catholic laity on this. If sex abusers have been involved with tinkering with the Mass, we should ask WHY?

Exactly. But my point is that the people pushing this stuff portray themselves as warm and loving and those of us who disagree with them as unloving, rigid, not caring, etc. THAT's the image that needs to change. The touchy feely stuff doesn't teach anything and that is what the message should be.

You are correct that the designer institutions push for change far more than anyone else and due to the celebrity status, it usually makes headlines. This is where the Jesuits managed to push all the junk they teach - they had impeccable credibility and trying to make regular, trusting Catholics realize that they are wolves in sheeps' clothing is just dizzying. Unless these people are betrayed themselves, they just won't believe it. I've run into this in my own house.

I think the best thing at this point that could happen is adult catechesis classes taught using the Catechism, the Bible and one or two texts from Tan or Ignatius, or something. Convincing young adults that we need it is going to be another battle, but I think in this learning is where we are going to teach the inadequacies of the NO as it is in so many places.