Life of Thomas More

[Gotterdammerung]

After reading about a fourth of the way through Luther's "Bondage of the Will" I decided he must be whacked. What a trip.

[Gotterdammerung]

After reading about a fourth of the way through Luther's "Bondage of the Will" I decided he must be whacked. What a trip.

[HarleyD]

Well I don't see how you can malign Luther and be objective. It would be like me saying the Pope is the Anti-Christ but all Catholics are OK. :O)

(And, no, I don't believe the Pope is the Anti-Christ and I'm not calling the Pope a name.)

As for humanism I did some research:

Some excerpts from Pico della Mirandola: Oration of the Dignity of Man

1)I once read that Abdala the Muslim, when asked what was most worthy of awe and wonder in this theater of the world, answered, "There is nothing to see more wonderful than man!"

2)Finally, the Great Artisan mandated that this creature who would receive nothing proper to himself shall have joint possession of whatever nature had been given to any other creature. He made man a creature of indeterminate and indifferent nature, and, placing him in the middle of the world, said to him "Adam, we give you no fixed place to live, no form that is peculiar to you, nor any function that is yours alone. According to your desires and judgement, you will have and possess whatever place to live, whatever form, and whatever functions you yourself choose.

Reference 1: http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/REN/ORATION.HTM

I’m not an expert in Pico della Mirandola’s writings but just some of his brief excerpts shows that he was influenced by the humanism philosophy. While this may be wonderful philosophy for the day he should have spent more time in his Bible.

Humanistic philosophy is described as:

Humanism, in philosophy, attitude that emphasizes the dignity and worth of the individual. A basic premise of humanism is that people are rational beings who possess within themselves the capacity for truth and goodness. The term humanism is most often used to describe a literary and cultural movement that spread through western Europe in the 14th and 15th centuries. This Renaissance revival of Greek and Roman studies emphasized the value of the classics for their own sake, rather than for their relevance to Christianity.

Reference 2: http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761564121/Humanism.html

For more information on Pico writing you may wish to read the Reference 1 website but it’s only the first seven paragraph-not much to go by.

Why I'm so heap up on this is that this secular shift which created the Renaissance (not a bad thing) also changed the focus of the church from the Glory of God to the Glory of Man (not a good thing) which is prevalent in our society and many of our churches today. I must say I just read Augustine’s De Civitate Dei, xviii and it is totally at odd with Pico's philosophy which Thomas More obviously abscribed to.

Just because the bibliography I posted does square with your’s does not mean that it is name calling. If you disagree with it the truth probably lies in the middle.

I'm not trying to flame-only to analyze.

[conservonator]

Two things:

Christ at with sinners and onlookers were scandalized. Are Christians is our failure to evangelize by being Christ like in our actions. St. Francis said "Preach Always, When Necessary Use Words". Not all evangelizing requires scripture slinging. I'm not saying that's what St. Thomas was doing, I 'm just saying that keeping the company of questionable folks is hardly a condemnation.

How does the humanism of Pico della Mirandola contradict you scandalized by St. Thomas More's association with "humanists"? One of our great failures as the Gospel? Were these excerpted writings from early or late in his career? How has the concept and definition of "humanism" changed over the years? Should we apply the negative connotations of the term to him with out fully understanding the body of his work in relation to Christian thought?

And why do you have a problem with philosophy? Don't you think God gave us a superior form of intelligence for a reason, no pun intended.

OK, that was three things ;)

[conservonator]

After reading about a fourth of the way through Luther's "Bondage of the Will" I decided he must be whacked.

He definitely had some issues.

[Polycarp IV]

It seems Sir Thomas More was a humanist and his friends worst. No wonder Luther rebelled. I certainly wouldn't praise the accomplishments of Sir Thomas More. Today we would call him a liberal Democrat.

Bring your boots. I haven't seen anti-Catholics pile it this deep on this forum in quite a while.

St. Thomas More, pray for HarleyD.

Ping.

[HarleyD]

Wow! That was more than three questions!

The humanist of the 14th/15th century changed the outlook of society to a man-center philosophy. This is why we have "God Loves You" stickers posted everywhere.

It is without a doubt that Thomas More held these position just by the company he kept. I not knocking him because this was the wave of influence in Europe. It's just plain wrong. Don't take my word but read Augustine.

But consider that he lived in a large mansion, never enter the church because he did not want to sacrifice not having a wife, ran around with liberal revolutionaries of the times, and preached on the needs of the poor while living the life of luxury it sounds like Bill Clinton. The only thing I can see why he became a saint is that he got his head taken off for tell Henry that he couldn't have a divorce. If you put him up to Mother Terresa there is no contest.

[Salvation]

Here are some additional threads about St. Thomas More on FR:

ST. THOMAS MORE, PATRON OF POLITICIANS?

St. Thomas More Bearing Witness Long After His Death

St. Thomas More and Modern Martyrdom

[Salvation]

**BTW, if you have a problem with Erasmus' "revision of Christian traditions," you ought to have a big problem with Luther and Calvin, who simply threw them away.**

BTTT!

[Salvation]

You are great!

[Salvation]

But I didn't even think that poster/person was a Catholic!

[Salvation]

**St. Thomas More, pray for HarleyD.**

Amen!

[HarleyD]

How come you think this is Anti-Catholic pile? I just don't see Thomas More as being so hotsy totsy. Do you have to like everyone in the Catholic Church?

[HarleyD]

PS-Thanks for the prayers. I need all the help I can get. :O)

[CatherineSiena]

Thomas More is honored by Catholics more for his stand against Henry VIII and his defense of the Church, than his humanist philosophy and intellectual acquaintances. No Catholic is oblidged to consider him a genius, but they should look to his martyrdom as an example of a courageous Christian.

[HarleyD]

I finally had time to read your posts from the Catholics and they confirm what my analysis (and article) concluded, that Thomas More was a liberal socialist living in a privileged class with a humanistic influence in the church. In reading your posts I find it remarkable there are liberal Catholics who joked about this on THIS BOARD.

Excerpts: ”We could use a few politicians with this kind of intestinal fortitude. Can you imagine what a difference that would have made in the impeachment proceedings of a couple of years ago?”

”I agree. GOP senate leadership would have to spend the next ten years in hair shirts to live down their impeachment preformance[sic].”

My favorite (though I didn't take this as a joke):

“I find it hard to believe that conservatives are really ready to embrace Sir Thomas More. He is, after all, the guy who wrote "Utopia". A more anti-private-property, pro-socialist story could hardly be found. Maybe that's why they picked More as the patron saint of politicians.”

These posts and threads that you referred me to only serve to show that the article I posted summarizing Thomas More’s life was dead on. It's no wonder my hackles are raised. The sad thing is the propaganda piece posted from the Catholic Church on his life.

Regrettably, I have never taken much of an interest in history and do not know much about the Reformation but I will have to do more reading. However, if this was the way the Catholic Church was heading at this point in time I can see why Martin Luther left. Quite frankly I would have been second out of the door and would have held the nails while ML hammered his thesis on the door. As I stated earlier, I think you’ll find that Martin Luther had more in common with the beautiful writings of the early church fathers like Augustine than Thomas More ever had.

To think the Catholic Church would recently have canonized this gentleman “as an example to politicians” (a liberal socialist?!?) is mind boggling and I’m outraged. When will the Catholic Church canonize Castro? I see nothing courageous about Thomas More and am extremely disappointed the Catholic Church would have recently canonized such a person. It should serve as a warning of who really is in control of the Catholic Church today.

And DON’T give me any of this Catholic bashing nonsense! You should all be writing the Pope expressing your outrage-not arguing with me on what a great guy he was. Now get writing. :O)

[HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity]

Ah, but the mischief continues...

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1068813/posts Georgetown U Frankenstein Research

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1068614/posts Georgetown Weird Research Continues