Question for Freeper Catholics

1/27/04 | LS

[LS]

I recently watched "The Messenger: The Story of Joan of Arc," starring Milla Jovovich. Not being a Catholic, I had some questions:

1) At the end, the notes said Joan was "canonized" 500 years later(approx. 1930s, I guess). Does canonization automatically mean one is "sainted?" Or are they different? If so, what is the difference?

2) What are the prerequisites to be either "canonized" or "sainted," if they are different?

3) Specifically to the movie---if anyone saw it---was the Dustin Hoffman character supposed to be Lucifer, the accuser?

4) I'm weak historically on this: was the film accurate about Joan often doing things on her own ("if you love me, fight for me") as opposed to leading the armies "in the name of God?" I suppose it depends on what you think of Joan, but among believers, is the consensus that she indeed received instructions from God, or that she was a fruitloop?

[Havoc]

The Vatican has always been overly cautious about claiming anything

No they haven't. Who are you trying to kid?! The Vatican only became cautious about it's claims when they came to the realization that it isn't the dark ages anymore and people actually are paying attention to their largely baseless claims. They can't just say "we have the spear that cut the side of Christ" and expect people to blindly stand agasp and in wonder at the thing. No, people actually bother to look into the credible nature of the matter and say, "Uh, sorry, no". There are whole books written on Catholic claims to relics that put this in perspective. I know you guys generally swipe at such things as screeds because we're only supposed to see the 'good' face of Catholicism so no one ever catches on and starts asking questions.

[Conservative til I die]

Even worse, when Protestants persecuted Catholics after the Reformation, they routinely destroyed relics, altars, tabernacles. Disgusting.

[Conservative til I die]

What is Havoc's denominational affiliation?

Satanist.

[Havoc]

Answer this: do you have proof about JEsuits ripping children from their mother's wombs?

Why? I didn't offer it. Answer this: Do I care. There is plenty of unchristian garbage your clergy propounded as doctrine and practice of your faith that resulted in the murder of people for their religious beliefs and the like. One need not manufacture the stuff. This is largely my point on begging Credibility. Your church has been so up to it's eyeballs in these things for most of it's history, that a charge like the above can be viewed as within the realm of possibility. And given the things I've read about the "purification" practices of the inquisition - it is more likely it happened in my mind than that it did not. Whether or not that is the case is yet to be seen.

You may say "well if that's the nasty attitude you're going to have..." To which I respond, your clergy is responsible for that attitude. Otherwise I guess we should not believe the taliban is capable of murdering people just because of September 11 if a statement is made that it might have happened today. That's just mean, irresponsible and bigotted. No, that's reality. And it doesn't cease to be reality just because it's your belief system rather than that of the others you attack with more passion than I do your own. You expect the world to be stupid and naive and just buy anything your clergy cares to say and you get out of sorts when your record and reality are examined to paint you something other than your rhetoric. To you we're all just stupid and naive because we can't see your murderous, lying, deceptive past as the love you have for others, except for other christians anyway - or other philosophies claiming to be christian, rather.

[Havoc]

That argument can be used by both sides -- the church was afraid that those preaching heresy were endangering not only their souls but also the souls of millions of others (which the leaders of heresies have done -- witness Islam)

Both?

[Havoc]

Good. I'm not here to entertain you.

[Conservative til I die]

For two, protestant denoms don't exist because of their propensity for understanding scripture. Protestant denominations exist in plenty because they, like your religion, are trying to wrap scripture around their philosophies.. using scripture as it were to prove their opinions. It has nothing to do whatever with whether God is right at that point or whether scripture is right

Let me guess, you're above it all right? Not part of all this denomination splitting (and if true, all that does is make you a denomination of one).

Boy, won't God be impressed when you show up in Heaven to tell Him what Scripture is really about!

[Havoc]

Truth hurts does it. Tell me. If I say the Taliban MURDERED over 3000 people on september 11, does it mean I hate someone when I say it? Or am I just stating a fact.
You forgot to call me a bigot for stating the facts.

[Conservative til I die]

Bummer dude, that Jesus didn't speak Greek, eh?

Come on, man, this is like Apologetics 101 stuff, and you're still playing the Petros-petra game? Amateur hour.

[Conservative til I die]

I know you guys generally swipe at such things as screeds because we're only supposed to see the 'good' face of Catholicism

There's a difference between wanting only to see the good side of Catholicism and not seeing any good in Catholicism and taking perceived faults to ridiculous levels, as you do.

so no one ever catches on and starts asking questions.

You give yourself to much credit. The Vatican isn't sitting in fear that the good Rev. Havoc calls us on our murdering, fraudulent ways.

[Conservative til I die]

Truth hurts does it.

Yeah, that's it. You got me.

[Havoc]

Glory to God in the highest we've got a winner. I'm not just a satanist, I'm the devil himself.. please. ROFL I don't think I can take much more of your boredome, I'll fall out of my chair in tears of laughter if you get anymore bored. If you have something to rebut, do it. Otherwise, grow up and get some spiritual life and discernment in you. Or did you not know those things existed. Oh, wait, I forgot that you guys give that stuff lipservice and beg credulity when someone actually displays such. Forgot. Next goofy statement?

[Conservative til I die]

You belong to the Father of the Lie. My comment was supposed to be a little more subtle than the "He disagrees with me so he's a Satanist" that it came out as. Despite your front as a good Christian, you unwittingly(?) do the bidding of Satan, tearing down others and attacking God's Church.

[Havoc]

Let me guess, you're above it all right? Not part of all this denomination splitting (and if true, all that does is make you a denomination of one).

No, it's a standard charge from you to beg whackiness or aloofness. Again, you aren't stating facts, you are begging credulity in order to bolster an appearance you wish to create. I'm a Christian. As such, if needs be I would be alone if it weren't for the other spiritfilled Christians out there in the vast minority of things that are struggling merely to follow Christ and do all that he commanded. We follow what Christ commanded, what the Apostles put in writing and where the Spirit of God leads. This is anathema to your way of thinking - your philosophy doesn't allow for it.

Boy won't God be impressed when I show up in heaven and know that his word is what I'm being judged by - not your philosophies.

[Havoc]

That Jesus didn't speak Greek? That's a revelation to Him I'm sure. A carpenter for most of his life who studied in Hebrew and his trade. The Trade language of the world was Greek. Care to level a charge at the Son of God for being slack in his life and neglecting to learn his own trade? Or considering your clergy's position that Christ is God, you wish to offer that God can't speak Greek. LOL. Boy this stuff is boring.

Petros vs. Petra is only amateur hour to you because when facts are against you, all you are left with is rhetoric.
And it isn't Apologetics 101, it's Greek 101. Greek is a state of being language. Words share common roots but have specific meaning that cannot be equated between the words.
So selection of words used is all important. This is why there are so many words in Greek to express love. Agapi and agapo have the same root; but mean quite different things. Just as petros and petra mean quite different things. This is what you wish to hide in your attacks on me and anyone else that speaks on the subject. Your clergy should have told a better lie when they went to it, then you might have a leg to stand on in trying to confuse people by warping reality, denying it and setting up a different one where -a vs -os isn't a vast difference because it's just two forms of the same word. Greek's vast specificity belies the argument - no matter what language Jesus was speaking in at a given time. Petra is used to denote mountains, bedrock, etc. And Aramaic and Hebrew both have words for those things. Greek has Petra, among others. Greek 101. I'm sure you didn't fail the language - you're just trying to scuttle it to force it to fit your philosophy. Which is the norm for your crowd.

[Havoc]

There's a difference between wanting only to see the good side of Catholicism and not seeing any good in Catholicism and taking perceived faults to ridiculous levels, as you do.

Nobody denies that Catholicism is full of generally good people or has done some good things. Marilyn manson has done some good things, Hitler did some good things. The point is not to compare them; but, to state the obvious that being good or doing good things doesn't make your organization special. It just makes it normal.

The Vatican isn't sitting in fear that the good Rev. Havoc calls us on our murdering, fraudulent ways.

Indeed not. The only thing the Vatican fears is that some of it's followers might wise up as they did in Boston and start holding them to account for the lies they've been spoonfeeding their flocks. This forum is full of Ex-Catholics. I really don't care what they think. Honestly. My job is people and sharing Christ's message. If that means butting heads with liars and philosophers, I'll do just that. If you happen to be one God will deal with you.

[Ex-Wretch]

... you aren't stating facts, you are begging credulity in order to bolster an appearance you wish to create. I'm a Christian. As such, if needs be I would be alone if it weren't for the other spiritfilled Christians out there in the vast minority of things that are struggling merely to follow Christ and do all that he commanded. We follow what Christ commanded, what the Apostles put in writing and where the Spirit of God leads. This is anathema to your way of thinking - your philosophy doesn't allow for it.

Boy won't God be impressed when I show up in heaven and know that his word is what I'm being judged by - not your philosophies.

Well said. Preach it, brother. See ya round the throne of God :)

[Havoc]

You belong to the Father of the Lie. My comment was supposed to be a little more subtle than the "He disagrees with me so he's a Satanist" that it came out as. Despite your front as a good Christian, you unwittingly(?) do the bidding of Satan, tearing down others and attacking God's Church.

Sorry, Christ told it like it was - so do I. I'm not tearing anyone down. I'm tearing something down, and that happens to be the lie behind which your clergy hides - that it is christian. It isn't. It's a religion based on philosophy paying lipservice to christianity. And God's church Is defined quite specifically in scripture, you guys don't fit that definition anymore than you individually fith the description given of what Christians are - one in the same thing. This is why Rome had to make up it's own definition of the church - and it even fails it's own.

The bidding of satan would be to fight for all it's worth to maintain the illusion that you're a Christian church. The more like Christianity a fraud looks, the better chance he has at defrauding people. Same goes for the protestant sects. As long as he can keep people duped by appearances, we're right on track for the end times prophecies. Which is actually a good thing in a way; but, it tells us how the elect can be nearly duped. Satan's fraud has to look so much like the real thing that it would dupe the elect if it were possible to so do. Revelation exactingly describes the Roman Church. I'll not accept a fraud for the real thing, much less a prophesied fraud.

[Conservative til I die]

Nobody denies that Catholicism is full of generally good people or has done some good things. Marilyn manson has done some good things, Hitler did some good things. The point is not to compare them; but, to state the obvious that being good or doing good things doesn't make your organization special. It just makes it normal

Subtle equation of the Catholic Church to Hitler duly noted.

[Havoc]

I equated no such thing. I'm sorry you feel the need to search for something to martyr yourself on and throw false accusations. I wish your position wasn't such that you felt the need to resort to such fraudulent acts; but, then that is what we are discussing isn't it. You're just trying to illustrate your fraudulent approach for us. Thanks. I appreciate the assistance.