Question for Freeper Catholics

1/27/04 | LS

[Havoc]

So don't be calumnous then or gullible. As I've oft said, just because you guys decided to write your own history to try and spin the bad stuff and blame others for it, don't mean anyone is gonna buy it. That you take offense when it isn't bought hook line and sinker ain't our problem. Gullibility is merely taking your word for it - the which we do not do. Again, it's our souls on the line, sir. And at least some of society is wise enough to recognize snakeoil sales pitches when they hear them. "Our product works - just look at my own testimonials on it" What's worst is we're not just standing by refusing to be gullible, we're looking at history (not propaganda) and scripture and seeing plain contradictions between your rhetoric, your clergy's actions and the scriptures. You're like a person caught abusing credit and not wanting to pay the bill; but, rather wish to blame the people you bought from for your spending habits. "we got this great empire and look at all this stuff." Us: "Yeah; but, that was got through fraud" "But that was someone elses fault.. not ours (wink)." Credibility, sir. As I've been saying to you for what, 4 years now...

[Havoc]

How are our clothes dirty when Christ washed that away and accepts faith for righteousness? In other words, he doesn't see the sin; but, rather our faith. Scripture, Dave, not philosophy.

[DallasMike]

Repeat your lies if you must.

Instead of just calling me a liar, why don't you point out what things I've said are lies.

Is the modern "understanding" of Purgatory different from that put forth infallibly by Trent? That should be an easy yes or no answer.

Is Purgatory a place where time is measured? If not, then why has the RCC always expressed existence there in units of time?

Is there any place in the Bible that supports the idea that believers do not go to Heaven to be with the Lord immediately upon death? That should be an easy yes or no answer, too. I provided you with linked citations to the Catholic bible.

[Cronos]

There are actual documented stories of Jesuits cutting babies out of the wombs of mothers, while their husbands were forced to watch.

THat's propaganda, disturbingly similar to what Nazis said about Jews. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say you're just repeating what you heard. however, there is NO proof of this, this is just some made up story like the PROTOCOLS OF THE ELDERS OF ZION -- a LIE/

[Havoc]

Here's Paul on the subject in case you "forgot":

Romans 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

[2] For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God.

[3] For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

[4] Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

[5] But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

In other words, if you think you can do anything by works, it is counted as debt that you cannot pay. For those operating from faith, Christians, faith is counted for righteousness. This is why I argue from two different positions that you can't reconcile because you're trying to think through it and find a carnal answer. If someone screws up and sins prior to death, I can't tell the motivation. I can't look at that and make the judgement. Where is their faith? If they turn from the faith, that faith doesn't exist as righteousness for them. If it isn't there, then neither is belief. Belief on Christ is a bottom line requirement. With neither faith nor belief, there is no sacrifice and no righteousness, therefore no heaven. Belief requires faith. So one can say that without faith, you're sunk. Period. Purgatory doesn't exist and isn't needed in Chrisitianity because of this. Sin is cleansed by Christ to begin with when we accept him. From then on it is our faith that determines our righteousness. Faith requires obedience to Grow. But it is still righteousness either way.

[Cronos]

also it is very possible that the disbanded Roman Empire, regrouped as the Roman Church by pharisees and various Roman leaders

Quite incorrect, the WESTERN Roman Empire disintegrated more than a century AFTER Christianity was put in place as the state religion. The Pharisees would never have supported what they regarded as a heretical cult of Judaism. The "Roman" Church is a misnomer -- it is the Worldwide "Catholic" church, with it's leader who happens to live in Rome.

What you've given in your email is nothing more than silly pieces of propaganda, so hilarious they probably belong to the time of the Puritans in England when they martyred Catholics by the hundreds.

[Cronos]

There were also many Jesuit priests and monks that tortured Christian couples, to get them to join the Roman Catholic church, and to find their bibles, and to burn these bibles. There are actual documented stories of Jesuits cutting babies out of the wombs of mothers, while their husbands were forced to watch.

Jesuits burn Bibles? Ha Ha Ha. There are NO documented cases because it's a lie, a vile piece of propaganda like the crap put out by the KKK that the Holocaust never existed. I'm surprised at you putting out stuff that would have graced the mouth of Goebbels. Ah well, you know what they say "Repeat a lie over and over again and people think it is the truth"

You think this of your fellow Christians -- you've been brainwashed. Imagine what brainwashing has been done toMuslims.

[Cronos]

There were also many Jesuit priests and monks that tortured Christian couples, to get them to join the Roman Catholic church, and to find their bibles, and to burn these bibles. There are actual documented stories of Jesuits cutting babies out of the wombs of mothers, while their husbands were forced to watch.

Jesuits burn Bibles? Ha Ha Ha. There are NO documented cases because it's a lie, a vile piece of propaganda like the crap put out by the KKK that the Holocaust never existed. I'm surprised at you putting out stuff that would have graced the mouth of Goebbels. Ah well, you know what they say "Repeat a lie over and over again and people think it is the truth"

You think this of your fellow Christians -- you've been brainwashed. Imagine what brainwashing has been done toMuslims.

[DallasMike]

Either your own eventual perfection has nothing to do with Christ, or else at some point Christ's perfection will be applied to you. Or else you are going to heaven in your dirty clothes.

We agree fully here. The problem is that your argument does nothing to prove that there is a place or state of being called Purgatory. There is NOTHING in the scriptures to support this idea.

Read Ludwig Ott's Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma. He says (page 483 in my edition) that "Holy writ teaches the existence of the cleansing fire indirectly, by admitting the possibility (emphasis added) of a purification in the other world." Ott then goes on to cite several verses. He then cites the beliefs of some of the Church Fathers and then goes on to prove Purgatory by reason.

Even the Catholic Encyclopedia describes Purgatory as a "a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions."

[Cronos]

I'll need to research some of my books, and talk to some old contacts, but these things are true. And I don't believe anyone here is strongly attacking Catholics in general, but more like the history of the Vatican and Roman Church.

The Roman Church WAS THE unifying force of Christianity for 1500 years. The Orthodox churches were not dogmatically different, more like a political schism.

Calvinistic and Lutheran beliefs are a reflection of earlier heresies which shows that the Thief has no originality, he always tries to destroy the church using the same tactics over and over again.

[ArrogantBustard]

When people post that sort of calumnious nonsense, it tells us nothing about the Catholic Church.

It tells us everything we need to know about the people who post it. They might just as well be quoting the "Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion", or recommending "The Turner Diaries" as inspirational reading.

[Cronos]

You know, the Germans after WWII were really incredulous that people could believe their leaders capable of such unthinkable monstrosities. There are many that even today deny that it took place. Incredulity is not a defense.

It's not incredulity. It's refutation of a lie as vile as the PROTOCOLS OF THE ELDERS OF ZION. The places that qutoe the vile things said about the RC church are propagandaist sites, as vapid as the protocols, yet, like the protocols, they still have people who think they are true. Ah well, evil spreads quickly, but the one true church does remain while Calvinism, Anglicanism, Lutherism etc. die out as heresies do.

[DallasMike]

...so hilarious they probably belong to the time of the Puritans in England when they martyred Catholics by the hundreds.

Catholics and Protestants have martyred one another on many occasions and none of us should be proud of our past. I consider Calvin to be a particularly wicked man. Dr. Schaff wrote:

To the great humiliation of the Protestant churches, religious intolerance and even persecution unto death were continued long alter the Reformation. In Geneva the pernicious theory was put into practice by state and church, even to the use of torture and the admission of the testimony of children against their parents, and with the sanction of Calvin. Bullinger, in the second Helvetic Confession, announced the principle that heresy could be punished like murder or treason.

[Cronos]

The RC Church believes in the word of God NOT in the selected readings spouted by the Protestant teachers, who prove the fact that a little knowledge is dangerous -- they know not what they say and just pick out small pieces to 'prove' erroneouos arguments, like the Anglicans and the Lutherans 'proved' thatpractisingGAys are ok by God.
That Proves that the Protestant heresy is NOT divinely inspired, rather it is inspired by the other.

[Cronos]

The bottom line in all this is the Septuagint has ALWAYS been controversial in the church. Some of the early fathers liked it, some didn’t. I doubt that we’ll solve it here.

True, but they do deserve to be read, at the very least to understand the historical times.

[SoothingDave]

How are our clothes dirty when Christ washed that away and accepts faith for righteousness?

So then you are the perfect Havoc? You will enter heaven just as you are? Or will you be made perfect?

[Cronos]

The change occurs in the "blink of an eye."

how do you define a blink? God's concept of time, reduces our perceptions to nothingness.

[DallasMike]

...selected readings spouted by the Protestant teachers, who prove the fact that a little knowledge is dangerous -- they know not what they say and just pick out small pieces to 'prove' erroneouos arguments...

So can you point to any readings that support the notion of Purgatory? How do you explain away all of the citations that I provided that deny the doctrine of Purgatory?

[HarleyD]

Absolutely!

[SoothingDave]

Instead of just calling me a liar, why don't you point out what things I've said are lies.

It's easier to just wait and you will say them again.

Is the modern "understanding" of Purgatory different from that put forth infallibly by Trent? That should be an easy yes or no answer.

No. And you have not provided any type of evidence that this teachign has changed. That is why you speak untruth when you say the doctrine is "ever-changing."

Is Purgatory a place where time is measured?

I've said 4 or 5 times that it isn't.

If not, then why has the RCC always expressed existence there in units of time?

This has been explained twice. Why should I tell you a third time, you didn't read or understand the first two times? Even a third individual tried to mediate the misunderstanding. Just believe what you want, it will be easier for you.

Just don't pretend you have tried to understand.

Is there any place in the Bible that supports the idea that believers do not go to Heaven to be with the Lord immediately upon death?

"Immediately" is a "time" word. You are still stuck with your false and ungrounded notion that Purgatory takes "time." See how you go round and round? How many times have I told you that it takes no time? How many times will you not listen to the explanation of what Trent says or what "temporal punishment" means? How long?

SD