"Messiah is a matter of belief"

1/23/04 | Rabbi Marc Gellman, Monsignor Tom Hartman

[RobbyS]

Any human act can affect everything. Think of how many lives are affected by each murder. I am thinking of the story of Cain and Abel. The message is that one cannot love his neighbor without loving God.

[philosofy123]

God does not tell us that he was so upset at Cain and Able murder act as he was upset at Eve eating from the "fruit", and giving to Adam? I am still puzzled!

[Catholicguy]

I'm still wondering if sentences will be rescinded for all those poor Catholic souls sent to hell for eating meat on Friday.

Well, you are certainly illustrating how, for some, there IS a conflict twixt Faith and Reason:)

What you think about the Catholic Faith is quite unreasonable.

Instead of making inane, unsourced, assertions, please cite for me any Document from any Catechism, Ecumencial Council, Papal Encyclical ect which teaches such a thing.

Do you, for starters, know the difference twixt Christian Doctrine and Precepts of the Church?

FYI, John the Baptist; And in those days cometh John the Baptist preaching in the desert of Judea. And saying: Do penance: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand...

Jesus: From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say: Do penance, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand...

and Peter, the First Pope, But Peter said to them: Do penance: and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins. And you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost....

ALL began their public ministries calling for repentance and penance. They are not bad examples to imitate.

By Divine Law all are required to do Penance.

[HarleyD]

This is not a flame but one of the little nits in life that bothers me is the idea early “Christians” hid records or falsely testified to His resurrection. Many (if not almost all) of these peoples were Jews who witnessed the Messiah’s resurrection. So there were Jews who believed (later called Christians) and Jews who did not believe. But for the most part they were all Jews. The Gentiles were “grafted” in later.

Only 2 books of the New Testament were written by a Gentile (Luke). All the others were written by Jews (some prominent) who must have been schooled in the Old Testament.

[LiteKeeper]

read later

[Catholicguy]

Eusebius of Caesarea (Church Historian), "The miraculous resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ having become famous and it being an ancient custom that the governors of provinces should send to the Emperor an account of anything new that turned up in their administration, so that he might be fully informed of everything that came to pass, Pontius Pilate acquainted Tiberius with the resurrection of the Saviour, which was known to everyone in Palestine.

[antiRepublicrat]

Eusebius of Caesarea (Church Historian)

Can we get an unbiased source please?

[RobbyS]

Maybe you will look at it again in this light. The Creation story tells of order appearing from chaos. The disobedience of Adam and Eve mark the appearance of disorder and as you read Genesis one sees this further disintegration until we get to the flood and the "re-creation" of mankind. The God of the Bible is always intervening to save mankind from the consequences of their actions, always acting through singular individuals and ending, so we Christians believe, in His personal entering of History and the establishment of the Church, whose saints acts as his surrogates until the End of History. Maybe this "mythical" view will make sense, if you understand that this "Myth" is just as grounded in fact as the myth of Evolution.

[philosofy123]

I guess you have a good point in such that Adam and Eve act of disobedience was the first bad thing to be done by the human race. In that case, I guess, God would have a point to stress that particle act before stressing other bad acts, even if the later acts are more horrible. I think?

[thinktwice]

From your link ...

From the moment when, through the Paschal Mystery, she received the gift of the ultimate truth about human life, the Church has made her pilgrim way along the paths of the world to proclaim that Jesus Christ is “the way, and the truth, and the life” (Jn 14:6).

If the church has the gift of "ultimate truth about human life," I'd expect there to be no mistakes; and especially not -- countless and incredible mistakes.

Conclusion -- the church has no gift to know "ultimate truth."

[thinktwice]

Instead of making inane, unsourced, assertions

Look it up yourself; it used to be a "mortal sin" for a Catholic to eat meat on Friday.

[Pelayo]

Look it up yourself; it used to be a "mortal sin" for a Catholic to eat meat on Friday.

Mortal sin doesn't automatically condemn some one to hell though. And any way, technically it STILL is a mortal sin to not preform a penance of some kind on Fridays.

[thinktwice]

By Divine Law all are required to do Penance.

For what? Original sin?

I'd say that "Divine Law" has more to do with maintaining an exhalted position for catholic clergy than anything else.

[jimt]

I am using "secular" in this case to indicate disinterested or even hostile recorders, and "religious" to indicate interested or favorable recorders.

I would have expected Romans of the time to be disinterested or hostile, and Christians of the time to certainly be interested and favorable.

No implication of "legendary" or "mythical".

[malakhi]

based upon your antiChristian bigotry.

Can you please point to me the "antiChristian bigotry" in Dave S's post?

[malakhi]

the Inquisition as an institution never actually existed.

And the Congregation for the Propagation of the Faith doesn't exist, either. Just another popular myth.

[jimt]

Eusebius of Caesarea (Church Historian), "The miraculous resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ having become famous and it being an ancient custom that the governors of provinces should send to the Emperor an account of anything new that turned up in their administration, so that he might be fully informed of everything that came to pass, Pontius Pilate acquainted Tiberius with the resurrection of the Saviour, which was known to everyone in Palestine.

Eusebius was not there. Tiberius was not there. Pontius Pilate was not there. None of these folks were witnesses to the resurrection, so their commentary is hearsay. Second order hearsay, mind you. Is Pontius Pilate recorded anywhere to have claimed to have witnessed (not heard about) the resurrection or ascension?

Apostles saw Jesus after the resurrection. Their statements are witness. The Bible does not contain their direct writings, so we hear of them through the writers of the Gospels.

What am I missing?

[malakhi]

EVIDENCE THAT DEMANDS A VERDICT by Josh McDowell Volume 1 (not Volume 2) is a fantastic book for those searching for answers.

For those searching for specific answers, perhaps. I found it quite unconvincing. There are other apologetics books that are much better written (although I didn't find them convincing either).

[thinktwice]

What am I missing?

Writings from Christ Jesus, himself.

[RobbyS]

A more general distinction would be between believers and nonbelievers. Jewish opinion would be equally "interested" and Roman sources may be simply blind to what they were looking at. None would provide an "objective" or god-like view. No such view is possible.