GOOD NEWS - BAD NEWS (Don't Say You Weren't Warned)

Self | 1-22-04 | Sidebar Moderator

[Terabitten]

LOL - add that to my list of "must tries."

Oh, dear sister, no... that was back in my vile younger days, well before I realied that wine came in bottles that *didn't* have screw tops. That was back in the "dollar ninety nine for a bottle of wine" days...

I've lately come to realize that my two true callings are good hefeweissen and Jack Daniels black label. Life's too short to drink bad beer or whiskey. :D

[Elsie]

There are some things I will not do. I will not arbitrate theological disputes. I will not resolve questions of church polity. Nor will I render judgment on interpretations of Scripture. Those are all issues for legitimate debate, and I do not propose to take part as just another poster on this forum. Naturally, I have my own opinions on all these issues, but my opinions are my own and I will keep them to myself.

Are Christians still allowed to 'contend for the faith'?

---

NIV Philippians 1:27-28
 27.  Whatever happens, conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ. Then, whether I come and see you or only hear about you in my absence, I will know that you stand firm in one spirit, contending as one man for the faith of the gospel
 28.  without being frightened in any way by those who oppose you. This is a sign to them that they will be destroyed, but that you will be saved--and that by God.

 

NIV Jude 1:3-4
 3.  Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints.
 4.  For certain men whose condemnation was written about  long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

 

KJV 2 Timothy 2:15
 15.  Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

 

Can Christians claim that this --> that was once for all entrusted to the saints. <-- means that nothing else is needed, and that any other group who says they've FOUND some MORE things that we NEED to be 'saved', we can challenge to 'make their point' as it were?

 

KJV 2 Timothy 1:7
 7.  For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

 

I can live within the guidelines proposed, as long as I am permitted to do so.

 

[Elsie]

Hey no fair posting in Latin... we won't know if you're toeing the line!

Excellent idea!

 

Not so!!!

 

I post here in English a LOT, and some folks STILL don't understand what I say!!!!!!!!!

[Grig]

Yeeeeeeee Hawwwwww!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am SO glad to see this happen. Thanks for taking on this task.

[neocon]

IMHO, too many posters lose sight of the fact that there is a real human being - a brother or sister in many common causes - on the other end of the Freeper handle

Thank you, AG. The reason I always argued against what seemed to be the inevitable "holy war" which has now been going on for several years here is that FR is primarily a political forum, and we could be more useful in effecting political change (e.g., fighting the "culture war") if we concentrated on our commonalities, joined forces, and took advantage of the strenghth there is in numbers. Our political opponents do not have to play "divide and conquer" with us, if we're already doing it to ourselves.

Naturally, in discussing political philosophy, it is inevitable that we would want to point to the religious sources of our concept of the meaning of law, and its relationship to ethics and morality. So religion necessarily will enter into it. But, if I were to present elements of the Scholastic philosophia perennis in support of my ideas, I would find it disruptive to have to deal with accusations that the Pope is the Anti-Christ, and the Catholic Church the Whore of Babylon. As a matter of principle, I refused to participate in that level of religious discussion in the forum. (The was only a single, unified forum, as I recall, in the early days of FR, and it was unmoderated.)

For that reason, I favored the creation of a separate Religion forum, where those who wished to discuss the intricacies of their faiths could do so. Apologetics, Scripture studies, and the like would be appropriate there, but not, except perhaps peripherally, in the political forum. Still, I had hoped that the discussion in the Religion forum would be guided by 1 Peter 2:15-16:

Always be ready to make your defense to anyone who demands from you an accounting for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and reverence.

The "gentleness and reverence" has been conspicious mostly for its absence in the Religion forum, and I do not exclude myself from that accusation. That's why it has become an embarrassment at FR, when it could have been quite the opposite. Had we exercised more charity in all our postings, even in the political forum, perhaps we could still count Matt Drudge and Lucianne Goldberg among our number. Now-a-days, few people in positions of influence want to have much to do with FR, and our effectiveness is mostly nil.

I don't usually have time to read whole threads, especially one as long as this, so my apologies if I'm repeating things which have been said above, or already settled. But, for the record, I think it would be a good idea to have group-specific threads, where more-or-less like-minded people may discuss a particular aspect of their faith. For example, I disagree strongly with the Calvinist doctrine of Limited Atonement, but it would be unseemly and disruptive of me to start putting my case against it on a thread where people want to work out some of the details of the idea among themselves. If such a thread were marked "Calvinists only please" or such-like, I would know my input would not be welcome, and would, in a spirit of civility, simply stay away. I probably wouldn't even read it.

To ease the burden on the moderators, I'd like to suggest a software feature which has been a feature of news readers for some time, viz., the "plonk" file, affectionately known as the "bozo bin". As we can already see from some of the responses to this thread, some people are here primarly because they like to fight. Several haven't been able to contain that urge even on this thread, and have attempted to bait others into "discussing" specific topics of religious contention. Such people, in my opinion, tend to dramatically decrease the signal-to-noise ratio of the forum. Rather than having them reprimanded or banned, I'd like to have the ability to simply ignore them. That way, if they direct incendiary comments my way, I will remain blissfully ignorant of them, and not be tempted to respond in kind. It becomes a kind of self-censorship, an aid to resist the temptation, in the terminology of the old Usenet maxim, to "feed the trolls".

A full implementation of this feature would require major changes to the server software, since it would require that custom pages for every thread be generated for each user. But a partial implementation might be easier and reasonably effective: namely, the ability to filter what turns up on one's "My Comments" page, which is already custom-generated as the result of a database search. The search engine would simply not deliver to that page any posts from someone on one's ignore list.

That's my two cents, for what it's worth. Good luck to our new SM!

[Elsie]

Sounds pretty clear to me.

It doesn't to me........

---

 

Is Peter the 'rock'?

 

---

NIV Matthew 4:18-19
 18.  As Jesus was walking beside the Sea of Galilee, he saw two brothers, Simon called Peter and his brother Andrew. They were casting a net into the lake, for they were fishermen.
 19.  "Come, follow me," Jesus said, "and I will make you fishers of men."

 

NIV Matthew 8:14
 14.  When Jesus came into Peter's house, he saw Peter's mother-in-law lying in bed with a fever.

 

NIV Matthew 10:1-2
 1.  He called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out evil  spirits and to heal every disease and sickness.
 2.  These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon (who is called Peter) and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John;

 

NIV Matthew 14:28-31
 28.  "Lord, if it's you," Peter replied, "tell me to come to you on the water."
 29.  "Come," he said.   Then Peter got down out of the boat, walked on the water and came toward Jesus.
 30.  But when he saw the wind, he was afraid and, beginning to sink, cried out, "Lord, save me!"
 31.  Immediately Jesus reached out his hand and caught him. "You of little faith," he said, "why did you doubt?"

 

NIV Matthew 15:13-16
 13.  He replied, "Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots.
 14.  Leave them; they are blind guides.  If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit."
 15.  Peter said, "Explain the parable to us."
 16.  "Are you still so dull?" Jesus asked them.

 

---

As you can see, Simon was already known as 'Peter'

BEFORE the following verses came along.....

---

NIV Matthew 16:13-18
 13.  When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?"
 14.  They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets."
 15.  "But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"
 16.  Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ,  the Son of the living God."
 17.  Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.
 18.  And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades  will not overcome it.

 19.  I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be  bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

---

NIV 1 Corinthians 10:4
 4.  and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

 

NIV Luke 6:48
 48.  He is like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built.

 

NIV Romans 9:33
 33.  As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."

 

 

 

NIV 1 Peter 2:4-8
 4.  As you come to him, the living Stone--rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him--
 5.  you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
 6.  For in Scripture it says: "See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."
 7.  Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe, "The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone, "
 8.  and, "A stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they disobey the message--which is also what they were destined for.

---

But, since there WAS no NT at the time Christ spoke to Peter, just what DID Peter and the rest of the Disciples know about ROCKS???

---

 

NIV Genesis 49:24-25
24.  But his bow remained steady, his strong arms stayed limber, because of the hand of the Mighty One of Jacob, because of the Shepherd, the Rock of Israel,
 25.  because of your father's God, who helps you, because of the Almighty,  who blesses you with blessings of the heavens above, blessings of the deep that lies below, blessings of the breast and womb.

 

NIV Numbers 20:8
 8.  "Take the staff, and you and your brother Aaron gather the assembly together. Speak to that rock before their eyes and it will pour out its water. You will bring water out of the rock for the community so they and their livestock can drink."

 

NIV Deuteronomy 32:4
 4.  He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he.

 

NIV Deuteronomy 32:15
 15.  Jeshurun  grew fat and kicked; filled with food, he became heavy and sleek. He abandoned the God who made him and rejected the Rock his Savior.

 

NIV Deuteronomy 32:18
 18.  You deserted the Rock, who fathered you; you forgot the God who gave you birth.

 

NIV Deuteronomy 32:30-31
 30.  How could one man chase a thousand, or two put ten thousand to flight, unless their Rock had sold them, unless the LORD had given them up?
 31.  For their rock is not like our Rock, as even our enemies concede.

 

NIV 1 Samuel 2:2
 2.  "There is no one holy  like the LORD; there is no one besides you; there is no Rock like our God.

 

NIV 2 Samuel 22:2-3
 2.  He said: "The LORD is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer;
 3.  my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge, my shield and the horn  of my salvation. He is my stronghold, my refuge and my savior-- from violent men you save me.

 

NIV 2 Samuel 22:32
 32.  For who is God besides the LORD? And who is the Rock except our God?

 

NIV 2 Samuel 22:47
 47.  "The LORD lives! Praise be to my Rock! Exalted be God, the Rock, my Savior!

 

NIV 2 Samuel 23:3-4
 3.  The God of Israel spoke, the Rock of Israel said to me: `When one rules over men in righteousness, when he rules in the fear of God,
 4.  he is like the light of morning at sunrise on a cloudless morning, like the brightness after rain that brings the grass from the earth.'

 

NIV Psalms 18:2
 2.  The LORD is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer; my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge. He is my shield and the horn  of my salvation, my stronghold.

 

NIV Psalms 18:31
 31.  For who is God besides the LORD? And who is the Rock except our God?

 

NIV Psalms 18:46
 46.  The LORD lives! Praise be to my Rock! Exalted be God my Savior!

 

NIV Psalms 19:14
 14.  May the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be pleasing in your sight, O LORD, my Rock and my Redeemer.

 

NIV Psalms 28:1

 

 1.  To you I call, O LORD my Rock; do not turn a deaf ear to me. For if you remain silent, I will be like those who have gone down to the pit.

 

NIV Psalms 31:2-3
 2.  Turn your ear to me, come quickly to my rescue; be my rock of refuge, a strong fortress to save me.
 3.  Since you are my rock and my fortress, for the sake of your name lead and guide me.

 

NIV Psalms 42:9
 9.  I say to God my Rock, "Why have you forgotten me? Why must I go about mourning, oppressed by the enemy?"

 

NIV Psalms 62:2
 2.  He alone is my rock and my salvation; he is my fortress, I will never be shaken.

 

NIV Psalms 62:6
 6.  He alone is my rock and my salvation; he is my fortress, I will not be shaken.

 

NIV Psalms 62:7
 7.  My salvation and my honor depend on God ; he is my mighty rock, my refuge.

 

NIV Psalms 71:3
 3.  Be my rock of refuge, to which I can always go; give the command to save me, for you are my rock and my fortress.

 

NIV Psalms 78:35
 35.  They remembered that God was their Rock, that God Most High was their Redeemer.

 

NIV Psalms 89:26
 26.  He will call out to me, `You are my Father, my God, the Rock my Savior.'

 

NIV Psalms 92:14-15
 14.  They will still bear fruit in old age, they will stay fresh and green,
 15.  proclaiming, "The LORD is upright; he is my Rock, and there is no wickedness in him."

 

NIV Psalms 95:1
 1.  Come, let us sing for joy to the LORD; let us shout aloud to the Rock of our salvation.

 

NIV Psalms 144:1
 1.  Praise be to the LORD my Rock, who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle.

 

NIV Isaiah 17:10
 10.  You have forgotten God your Savior; you have not remembered the Rock, your fortress.

 

NIV Isaiah 26:4
 4.  Trust in the LORD forever, for the LORD, the LORD, is the Rock eternal.

 

NIV Isaiah 30:29
29.  And you will sing as on the night you celebrate a holy festival; your hearts will rejoice as when people go up with flutes to the mountain of the LORD, to the Rock of Israel.

 

NIV Isaiah 44:8
 8.  Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one." 

 

NIV Habakkuk 1:12
 12.  O LORD, are you not from everlasting? My God, my Holy One, we will not die. O LORD, you have appointed them to execute judgment; O Rock, you have ordained them to punish.

---

.....No other rock.............

 

And now you know the Biblical position!

 

 

 

 

[Barnacle]

Selective use of Scripture.

Right... Mine is selective but yours is not.

[Wrigley]

Prove the "accusations" are false if you can.

I don't believe you can. So you don't.

[Wrigley]

Barbra Striesand.

[OLD REGGIE]

.....No other rock.............

And now you know the Biblical position!

Perhaps I didn't make it clear my point to polemikos was that even the official Catechism of the Catholic Church doesn't claim the Church was built upon Peter.

I agree with you, not polemikos.

[Jerry_M]

Oh great.

Now I have to read almost 700 posts in order to figure out the ever changing rules of religious discussion on FR.

Shoot, I don't even have enough time to read the things that interest me.

[OLD REGGIE]

Right... Mine is selective but yours is not.

Are we in agreement you selected a verse which places Peter on the "right" of the bell curve and ignored the verses which indicated he (Peter) was on the "left" or another Apostle was on the "right"?

[Uri’el-2012]

..........

24 The Lord?s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged,
25 with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, -- 2Tim 2:24-25 [NASB]
That's all the mods are asking. If you can't abide with that, well too bad, so sad you're mad.

Don't let the door hit you in the butt on the way out.

664 posted on 01/24/2004 11:54:04 AM MST by jude24

What a failure of Christian brotherly love.

I pray that you will be in the spirit, not in the flesh.

NAsbU James 1:22 But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves. 23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his natural face in a mirror; 24 for once he has looked at himself and gone away, he has immediately forgotten what kind of person he was. 25 But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the law of liberty, and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an effectual doer, this man will be blessed in what he does. 26 If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man's religion is worthless. 27 Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world.

a bondslave to the Christ

chuck

[Uri’el-2012]

693

a bondslave to the Christ
chuck

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Why are you attempting to turn the thread into a flamewar? That is misplaced and thoroughly inappropriate. (sorry mods: this is a good example of a gratuitous flame)

Go back and read the previous 2 or 3 posts in context and you'll find its not a flame at all.

[Barnacle]

Selective use of Scripture.

Good grief!... Oh, so mine is selective but yours is not.

Let's not confuse rebuke with condemnation. Peter was trying to save Jesus from a certain and terrible fate. This is the same anyone of us mere mortals would do if one we loved dearly chose to die a terrible death. Jesus was focused on his divine mission and regarded anything or any weakness that might deter Him from it to be a message from Satan. The following from NIV, courtesy of Bible Gateway.com

Matthew 16

18And I tell you that you are Peter,[3] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[4] will not overcome it.[5] 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be[6] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[7] loosed in heaven." 20Then he warned his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ.

21From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life. 22Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. "Never, Lord!" he said. "This shall never happen to you!" 23Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men." 24Then Jesus said to his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.

**********************************************************************************

Peter did just that. He worked miracles, converted Jews to Christianity, wrote two books of the Holy Bible and died as a martyr in Rome.

As to Jesus bequeathing Mary to the care of John as his Mother, Jesus was looking after Mary’s mortal well being. And you would yours if you were about to depart this world. John was young. Peter was older and already burdened with being head of the Apostles.

[OLD REGGIE]

Peter was trying to save Jesus from a certain and terrible fate.

And Peter knew something Jesus didn't?

Peter was older and already burdened with being head of the Apostles.

And the other Apostles didn't know this?
Luke 22
[24] A dispute also arose among them, which of them was to be regarded as the greatest.

And what did Jesus say?

Yet subordinate to James?

Keep reaching.

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

Hey no fair posting in Latin... we won't know if you're toeing the line!

Excellent idea!

Not so!!!

I post here in English a LOT, and some folks STILL don't understand what I say!!!!!!!!!

In honor of the Mel Gibson movie, I am moving away from Latin and towards Aramaic. This can be done!

[Barnacle]

"Peter was trying to save Jesus from a certain and terrible fate.”

And Peter knew something Jesus didn't?

No he didn’t. He was overcome with grief and had lost sight of Jesus’ ultimate mission. That’s why Jesus rebuked him so sharply. It was like a slap in the face to straighten out a shell-shocked soldier.

”Peter was older and already burdened with being head of the Apostles.”

And the other Apostles didn't know this?

It is only logical that Jesus reminded them to be of servants to each other as found in Luke, before making the following announcement as found in Matthew:

18And I tell you that you are Peter,[3] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[4] will not overcome it.[5] 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be[6] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[7] loosed in heaven."

And what did Jesus say?
Yet subordinate to James?

What’s your point here?

[dansangel]

Life's too short to drink bad beer or whiskey. :D

Agreed! That's why my response to you was laden with a healthy dose of irony. *Been there, done that, don't care to revisit that place anymore, thank you!" :-)

Do you remember Boone's Farm and cheap Sangria? Eck! To this day I can't stomach anything remotely approaching a "fruity" wine. Too much experimenting at an early age. LOL.