GOOD NEWS - BAD NEWS (Don't Say You Weren't Warned)

Self | 1-22-04 | Sidebar Moderator

[Sidebar Moderator]

GOOD NEWS - BAD NEWS
(Don't Say You Weren't Warned)

The bad news is that I am the newly designated moderator of Free Republic's Religion Forum. The good news is that I am the newly designated moderator of Free Republic's Religion Forum.

First, let's discuss why this is bad news.

I have no doubt that everyone who participates in this forum is aware of the general posting guidelines of Free Republic; they've been in effect as long as Free Republic has been in existence. Just for clarity, here they are again: "NO profanity, NO personal attacks, NO racism or violence in posts."

Having spent the better part of a week reading as much as I was able to get to on the Religion Forum, which includes virtually every currently posted thread, I can say that I've seen no profanity (should be a given on a forum devoted to religion), and only one or two posts which could be construed to contain violence. On that score I commend you all.

Unfortunately, however, personal attacks are rampant. Protestants attack Catholics, and vice versa. Within these two major Christian families, Calvinists attack Arminians, and tit-for-tat. Traditional Catholics attack New Age Catholics, and back it comes. Self-professed Christians of all flavors post gratuitous insults and jibes directed toward Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses frequently. Threads are posted for the obvious and sole purpose of flaming "the opposition", whoever that might be in any particular instance. I could go on and on with further examples, but from many of your posted comments it is clear that all of you are aware of these facts, and seemingly, accept them as the order of things.

It is not the order of things, and it will no longer be tolerated.

Sadly, a forum devoted to perhaps the highest endeavor of the human mind and soul, that of the religious expression of faith, has become an embarrassment to Free Republic. All too often the discourse appearing in the Religion Forum resembles that found in those threads devoted to the War on Drugs, less the profanity, of course. Consequently, the question whether the Religion Forum will remain much longer as a feature of Free Republic, at least in its present format, is very much up in the air. How that question is answered depends entirely on the response each and every one of you make to this announcement in the next few weeks.

Therefore, from this time forward, the Free Republic rule of " NO profanity, NO personal attacks, NO racism or violence in posts.", will be more strictly enforced. Furthermore, you are all reminded that this is a religion forum; that is, all practitioners of any recognized religion, provided they also follow the rules, are welcome. However, since a large majority of posters to this forum are self-professing Christians, of one flavor or another, some additional rules will be imposed. You should all be quite familiar with them, even though some of you seem to pay them no heed at present.

These rules are:

"The second is this, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself'." [Mark 12:31 (RSV)]

"But I say to you that hear, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you." [Luke 6:27 (RSV)]

"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; even as I have loved you, that you also love one another." [John 13:34 (RSV)]

"If you love me, you will keep my commandments." [John 14:15 (RSV)]

Or, if the commandments of our Lord Jesus are insufficient (paraphrasing Paul) speak the truth in love.

For now, enough of the harsh words. There really is good news.

First and foremost, all that has passed prior to today is forgiven. However, my forgiveness, unlike that of God, is continuing but not unlimited. After all, I'm a sinner, too. Transgressions of the rules will be met with three warnings, followed by three progressively lengthy suspensions, after which unrepentant posters will be, shall we say, cast into the outer darkness. Totally outrageous violations, of course, remain subject to the ultimate penalty immediately, as always.

However, I am also aware that love, in the Biblical sense, is not the Hollywood kind of love we hear about all around us these days. Spirited debate is a hallmark of Free Republic, and is welcome. Sometimes the truth (at least as we understand it, through a glass darkly) sounds rather harsh, but even harsh truth can be couched in terms that allow the Christian love of the speaker to come through.

Further, no matter how you read the tenor of this announcement, I am not a martinet. I can be persuaded to change my mind by reasoned discourse. On the other hand, sinful nature that I have, I do not suffer fools gladly. Directing complaints to me over some action I have taken is fine; doing so with insulting language will not achieve the results you desire, and in fact, will probably result in something far worse. And, as always, I am not the ultimate authority regarding any decision I make; anything I do can be appealed to one higher court - Jim Robinson, by whose direction I am here as moderator.

There are some things I will not do. I will not arbitrate theological disputes. I will not resolve questions of church polity. Nor will I render judgment on interpretations of Scripture. Those are all issues for legitimate debate, and I do not propose to take part as just another poster on this forum. Naturally, I have my own opinions on all these issues, but my opinions are my own and I will keep them to myself.

You should also know, I suppose, that I was selected as the moderator of the Religion Forum because no one else wanted to wade into the mess that this forum has become. All too often when abuse reports come into the moderators from the Religion Forum it is discovered that there are no clean hands in the dispute under complaint. More often than not removing the post complained about generates another abuse report asking "why was I punished when he said thus-and-so first". In many cases, removing all of the offending posts makes the thread unreadable. So, whatever you think of me now, or come to think of me in the next few weeks, I'm your last chance. After me comes the abyss.

And do yourself a favor; before you respond to this announcement remember the immortal advice of Jim Croce:

'You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask off the old Lone Ranger
And you don't mess around with Jim'

I'm not Jim, but I've got his ear.

One final word. I am not here 24/7. I actually have a life away from Free Republic; consequently your questions/complaints/comments may not be answered immediately. Be patient, they will be answered eventually. In the end, my goal is (our goal should be) that there will come the day when my presence here is unnoticed. That should be attainable if we all act like the Christian brothers and sisters we claim to be.

May God bless you all.

[malakhi]

Perhaps you haven't heard of the Church of the Bible Believing Barnacle. It is celebrating its second week of scandal-free existence.

Sounds like pride to me.

Well, it was nice while it lasted! ;o)

[jimt]

Respectfully of course, I am told by more than one LDS on FR that they do not accept the traditional Christian creeds, and consider the Bible accurate only "as translated".

This however is not the place for a doctrinal discussion of mormonism - however - I do ask that if you consider them errant, I will welcome your reasoned response / correction.

I'd be very interested to hear about the traditional Christian creeds they don't accept, if they're practicing LDS.

I was only a member for about 8 years, but having earlier attended Presbyterian, Catholic and Episcopalian churches, I found nothing about the Mormons which struck me as un-Christian. Having read the Bible many times, and studied it a fair amount, I still maintain that opinion.

But maybe my own thoughts are not "traditional". For instance, I don't believe that God created the world in six 24 hour days approximately 6,000 years ago.

Could you elaborate on the non-acceptance of traditional creeds?

And I didn't find your post offensive. Yours was a great example of how people can reasonably disagree, which is what makes for interesting discussions.

[Barnacle]

You just pingged yourself. Is that allowed?

Here's a better question. What's this about a swarm? Are you a Apitherapist?

[Lead Moderator]

I think you either ignored or missed the word "just" in my comment. There are some who overuse the abuse button. But the problem isn't just that.

Thanks for giving me the opportunity to clarify.

[White Mountain]

Your #357: I am told by more than one LDS on FR that they do not accept the traditional Christian creeds, and consider the Bible accurate only "as translated [correctly]". This however is not the place for a doctrinal discussion of mormonism

That's right.

Every Bible believer, without exception, only considers a translation accurate if they think it is accurate, that is, translated correctly.

It is not necessary to accept doctrines of men in order to be a Christian. It is necessary to believe in Christ, do what He says, accept the apostles and prophets He has sent, and the Scripture He has commanded them to write.

Now, hopefully, back to the topic of the thread.

[drstevej]

***IMO a constant crier is as bad as a "hostile" poster.***

Absolutely. Constant whining and labeling disrupts productive discussion. It's not natural, man!

[Alex Murphy]

Could you elaborate on the non-acceptance of traditional creeds?

I'm reasonably sure Rev911 is talking about certain sections in Joseph Smith's "first vision" account. It's been debated in the forum before. I won't go into it here, as this thread is intended to talk about the new Mod and Mod rules, not about specific beliefs per se.

I have no doubt the "first vision" issue will come up again, as it stands as a significant point of disagreement and contention between the LDS and historic Christianity.

[CARepubGal]

From LDS approved scriptures: "I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: 'they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.' " (Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith—History 1: 16-19)

For the purpose of explication, Creeds would include the Athanasian, Nicene, the Westminster Confession, Heidelburg Confession, Chalcedonian creed to name a few. Our Catholic friends could probably fill in the blanks here (I am trying to get electricity and cable going for a new living space and have most of my info packed). Just for starters. I would happily provide more information for you upon request. :-)

[CARepubGal]

Just to clarify a question asked up the thread, not for any debate or discussion (and on that note,Can we have edit sometime? It would make life sooo much easier for the spelling impaired among us and save the mods a whole lot of time they spend deleting something we say "oops" and have to hit abuse to remove.....) :-)

[Alex Murphy]

I have no doubt the "first vision" issue will come up again, as it stands as a significant point of disagreement and contention between the LDS and historic Christianity.

Not to mention threads concerning the authority of the Pope, inspiration/infallibility/inerrency of the Bible, which end-times model is more biblical, SSPX versus Novus Ordo, Catholics versus Protestants, Arminians versus Calvinists, Arminians versus Pelagians, Hyper-Calvinism, is Jesus really the Messiah, King James versus other translations, ordination for women/gays, eating meat versus eating vegetables, marijuana, "New World Order" and other conspiracy theories, etc etc etc.

Did I leave anyone's pet subject out? Just want to make sure none of you thought you were being singled out :)

[Markofhumanfeet]

Would this essentially mean then that the bible as we have it today, has been corrupted?

[drstevej]

An edit feature would be nice.

The the SBM could ask a poster to either rephrase his/her post or remove offending sections. It is also good for when we post something that is misunderstood or needs rewording in light of feedback.

I find this very handy on other forums.

[CARepubGal]

Can we take this to its own thread perhaps? The answer would be that the Holy Scriptures are inerrant from a Catholic/Orthodox/Protestant POV (with a point of difference regarding the Apocrypha) but the Mormons do believe Scripture was corrupted, thus the JST (Joseph Smith Translation was created). IMO, this is wrong. :-)

[OLD REGGIE]

3 - My tagline is just a corollary to the fact that of the 30,000 Protestant denominations, 29,999 must be wrong on some point of theology. I believe that is something even Protestants agree with.

I could say that you have no idea whereof you speak. I could say that there are 30,000 varieties of Cafetaria Catholics.

I will be satisfied if you merely list 500 Protestant denominations. It won't even be necessary to identify the significant theological differences. Is that fair?

[Markofhumanfeet]

Interesting. Is that what you would say WhiteMountain? Maybe just a yes or no, not to take up the thread?

[White Mountain]

Your #364: I think you either ignored or missed the word "just" in my comment. There are some who overuse the abuse button. But the problem isn't just that. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to clarify.

Thanks for the clarification. I wasn't sure if "button happy" meant overuse, particularly since what your own eyes saw meshed with the reports.

Hopefully I have never been considered one of the button happy people. I have never been told that I was, except by my critics who keep claiming that I am responsible for all sorts of things disappearing, something I am powerless to make happen.

On the other hand, the whole reason we are having this thread in the first place is that far too many posts have been made that violate the rules, but abuse was never pushed, nor did the moderators pull them, and the posts are still there.

The brawlers are going to try to make overuse of the abuse button the bigger problem, but as the article says, the brawling is the bigger problem. How much would the abuse button be used if there were no brawling?

Thanks for your help, and for all that you have done.

[Lead Moderator]

In the past week, there was a conscious effort made by the staff to avoid pulling almost anything except the most egregious in the religion forum, so as to allow us (and our intrepid volunteer SM) to get a better feel for how things go without our involvement, while we discussed a path forward. That may be why you have noticed some things staying up that might really have been appropriate pulls.

Thanks, LM

[jude24]

Yeah, but I suspect if I posted Luther's account of his cloaca conversion experience, I'd merit at least a stern warning from the Mods. And let's not even think about the flame war between Luther and the Pope.

[jimt]

From LDS approved scriptures: "I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: 'they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.' " (Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith—History 1: 16-19)

For the purpose of explication, Creeds would include the Athanasian, Nicene, the Westminster Confession, Heidelburg Confession, Chalcedonian creed to name a few. Our Catholic friends could probably fill in the blanks here (I am trying to get electricity and cable going for a new living space and have most of my info packed). Just for starters. I would happily provide more information for you upon request. :-)

Ha ! Now is when I must tread carefully so as not to be offensive !

The quote you gave I acknowledge as accurate per my memory.

Joseph Smith had been considering joining various churches in his neighborhood, and had been praying for guidance. I don't remember the particular denominations, and thus can skip that method of offending anybody.

The guidance he received was the appearance of an angel, Moroni, who provided the "answer" and was the "Personage".

As the Bible has plenty of cases of angels appearing to people, I don't find this particularly odd that God should send Moroni to Joseph Smith. In fact, it would seem very much in keeping with the Bible.

As far as the part goes about their being all wrong and that their teachings are in error, every Christian sect believes that of every other, as far as I'm aware. Which is again unremarkable. Do Presbyterians believe in purgatory ? Or preaching in latin? Or not eating fish on Fridays ? Do Catholics believe dancing is a sin ?

Regarding the Athanasian creed, Nicene creed, the Westminster Confession, Heidelburg Confession, Chalcedonian creed, etc., I had only heard of a few by name. A few minutes' perusal (ain't the internet better than sliced bread and canned beer?) shows me they all differ from each other, yet all have similarities. The fact is that the Mormon "creed" has much in common with them.

[drstevej]

The Sagacity Prayer

GOD, grant ye mod the sagacity to discern the things should not remain,

Insight to zap the things he should, and the wisdom to know the difference.