And this, you understand, is down by the river. And I live there.
Posted on 01/15/2004 8:31:40 AM PST by jboot
Hello, fellow GRPL members. Please forgive me for pinging you to this lengthy vanity post. I have a dilemma, and I need the advice of my Christian brothers.
My problem is quite simple. My wife and I have attended a small but energetic Bible church for several years. We have many friends there, and the fellowship we feel with everyone there is genuine and Spirit-filled. So what’s the problem? Over time, our beliefs have diverged from that of our church. Some background:
When we started attending, I was a “milk-fed” Christian, and my wife was a pretend Christian, believing intellectually, but without faith. God was not finished with us, and broke both of us in short order (another thread would be needed for full explanations). We came out of the experience as grace-filled believers hungry for the Word. But I was astonished at what I read in the Word; the God I thought I knew was tolerant, loving and gentle to a fault. He wanted us to work for Him to make “good things” happen. All of the “bad things” that happen in the world were unfortunate, but He either couldn’t or wouldn’t do anything about them, because…well, you all know where I’m going.
The God I discovered was Sovereign over His universe. Not a hair falls from my head without His will. He knows His sheep, has known them since the beginning, and gives them to His Son forever. He speaks and the mountains shake and crumble. Nothing impedes His will. My wife, thank God for her, was just as delighted and comforted by this revelation as I was.
Not surprisingly, this is NOT the doctrine taught at my church. The pastor, who is a close friend of mine, considers “Calvinism” to be a dirty word. He even says it funny, in a stage whisper, the way a child might toss out a vulgar word to his friend son the school bus. The only time he has ever been impatient with me was when I brought up election in a bible study. He said “We don’t want to talk about THAT here. It’s too controversial.” Later, he said “your not one of those predestination people, are you?”
On another occasion he told me that “I don’t really believe in assurance.” This is not surprising in that he appears to be Hyper-Arminian. (Proof: he believes infants are condemned to hell because they are not able to accept, believe and repent. Listening to him trying to comfort a man whose wife had lost a baby was one of the most excruciating things I’ve ever been a party to. That family left soon after.)
For months, his sermons have dwelt on evangelism. This is an excellent topic, but his favorite motivational speech is “None of you care one bit about the lost. By your inaction, you are condemning your neighbors to hell. God can’t save them without your help. If you fail, you will be crying tears in heaven for the ones you helped send to hell while everyone else rejoices.” (Yes, these are word for word accurate.)
Despite this kind of nonsense, we love the people and the pastor. We’ve had great times with these folks, and the Lord is working among them. Furthermore, I am quite certain that the Lord planted us in this church, and is not yet calling us to leave. But we are becoming very unhappy, especially muy wife. She is adamant that I should confront the pastor, but I am rather nervous about losing a friend. The elders are spiritual babes who read Bruce Wilkerson and Rick Warren instead of the scriptures, so there is little use in involving them even after I have spoken to the pastor. Has anyone faced a situation like this? What did you do? Help!
And this, you understand, is down by the river. And I live there.
In my best dried, Hell-Fire and Damnation Calvinistic speech:
I do not see "laughed Jesus" in the scriptures. :O)
I know some would disagree with me but frankly, coming from both sides of the fence I think the discussion of works is a lot about semantics than anything. Consider Jonah inside the fish. Calvinists would say God Sovereign Will brought Jonah to a state of repentance by creating the appropriate circumstances. Armenians would say that Jonah repented after God bought His Sovereign Will to bear. (Jonah was inside that nasty fish for three days before finally giving up.) I favor the Calvinistic version but in either case the effects are the same.
Just don’t tell me you have to work for your salvation.
I left a Calvinist church because it appears that the fruit of Calvinism is liberalism. The logic of Calvinist doctrine is: I elected, I'm secure; therefore I'll just relax.
Personally, I would look for a church's fruit over Calvinist doctrine. Fruit is the evidence of Christ's love.
The operative word there is "created", for indeed Adam was created with a free will, and he exercised that free will to rebell against God. Since then, all have been born slaves to sin. Haven't you studied Romans?
Romans 3:
5But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unjust who inflicts wrath? (I speak as a man.) 6Certainly not! For then how will God judge the world?
7For if the truth of God has increased through my lie to His glory, why am I also still judged as a sinner? 8And why not say, "Let us do evil that good may come"?--as we are slanderously reported and as some affirm that we say. Their condemnation is just.
(1) 9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin. 10As it is written:
"There is none righteous, no, not one;
11There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one."
13"Their throat is an open tomb;
With their tongues they have practiced deceit";
"The poison of asps is under their lips";
14"Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness."
15"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16Destruction and misery are in their ways;
17And the way of peace they have not known."
18"There is no fear of God before their eyes."
------------------------
What does, There is none who seeks after God, mean?
It is indeed unfortunate that the number of faithful Reformed churches is small, but to reach the conclusion that Calvinsm leads to liberalism is a non-sequitur.
Within "Calvindom", you have the big, overall apostate denominations (PCUSA, CRCNA, RCA), you have churches where the central dogma becomes earthly conquest, with little emphasis on sin, misery, and suffering for the sake of the Gospel (North, Demar, and Rushdoony's other followers and offshoots, popular in some Presbyerian circles), and you have small, insular ethnic communities that are orthodox but tend to grow through procreation and don't actively seek outsiders. We ought not leave out the Reformed Baptists, many of which are faithful (though wrong on the covenent, imho). Taken as a whole, the number of faithful Calvinistic churches is quite small; truly, God's people are a "remnant chosen by grace" and Christianity is not conquering the world, though God has His people in every tribe and nation.
Having said all that, is there such a thing as a faithful free-will church - faithful to the Scriptures, that is?
Deut. 4:29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the Lord thy God, thou shalt find Him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.
The elect do this.
Matthew 7:7, 8 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
The elect do this.
II Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is LONGSUFFERING to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that ALL should come to repentence.
Amen. The elect persevere.
Longsuffering means He is willing to wait as long as it takes for us to repent and come back to Him. And this may suprise you, but the word all in greek and english means...ALL! If He is willing that all come to repentance, does He contradict himself?
He will turn His own according to His timing, according to His purposes, and for His glory. God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but His justice is nonetheless glorified therein. God desires that His people turn to Him, and every one of them will.
One more question. Do you worry about your children? What if one of them is not "chosen", or "sought" after by God? Can you not lead them to the Lord, and insure that they have eternal life with our heavenly father.
Trust the God who gave you these children. Worrying about man having less control than God betrays an attitude of knowing better than God rather than complete trust. "Train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not depart from it."
Sorry. One more thing. When Jesus tells us to go unto all the world and preach the Gospel... Why? if he has already decided who he will save?
Ironically, this is precisely what gave hope to two of America and England's greatest evangelists - Whitefield and Edwards: Knowing that the fields were ripe for harvest, that the elect were out there, waiting to hear the word. Is it not much far better to trust in God than in the fickle will of man, who "is like a vapor" (Ps. 144)?
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