But Is Mel Gibson Catholic?

Pangaeus ^

[GirlShortstop]

The wife and I saw the preview for The Passion yesterday.

I am green with envy.  Lucky you.
FReegards!

[Coleus]

We believe in ONE Holy and Catholic Apostolic Church.

Mel Gibson is NOT Catholic since he built his own church and hired his own priests. The only person who contains the full priesthood of Jesus Christ in a diocese is the Bishop. It is he who gives permission to build churches and blesses the ground on which it's built and then so blesses and dedicates the church, which by civil law he also is named a trustee of the property. Any "priest" in the Catholic Church MUST be under a bishop including those in religious orders, and for a priest to perform sacraments, he needs to be under a bishop and if outside the diocese he needs permission from his bishop and the bishop to where he is going to be stationed.

Mel Gibson is a great guy and shows a good example on how some in the motion picture industry should live, he is pro life, has 6 kids and is not divorced. I just wish he would have gone to his local bishop and worked something out.

[drstevej]

Hey ultima, great to see you here. I missed you.

[nickcarraway]

To me it's a little weird that we are commenting on the status of a particular individual. It's like standing at mass wondering whether your neighbors are in a state of Grace. Definitely not something that a Catholic should be doing.

The only question we should be asking is if the movie is appropriate to watch.

[drstevej]

***Just because he isn't affiliated with Mahony doesn't make him schismatic***

Please explain.

[Snuffington]

What About the Latin Mass?, the Latin Mass that traditionalists long for is nothing like 2000 years old--the early Mass was often in Greek, and Gibson probably remembers only the Latin Mass that wasn’t finalized until 1962. “So if he was born in 1956,” Johnson says, “his Latin Mass is really younger than he is himself.”

The intellectual disingenuousness here is staggering.

[RFT1]

His local Bishop is Cardinal Mahony, so I doubt anything could have been worked out. Material schism such as seen at parish such as St Joan of arc in Minneapolis MN is in my opinion far more dangerous that being in a illregular relationship with Rome.

http://www.stjoan.com

[litany_of_lies]

Let the press and the heretics in the Catholic priesthood and hierarchy try to use Gibson's possibly "schismatic" situation as an excuse to dis "The Passion."

Lessee, am I more worried about:
- a guy who makes a historically accurate movie about The Passion with the potential to expose millions to the possibility of eternal salvation? OR
- a US church leadership where two-thirds of the bishops have been directly involved or have worked to cover up the homosexual assaults of their priests and other clergy? (My two-thirds figure comes from the latest edition of New Oxford Review, so I'm going to take it as accurate)

Hmm. Gibson or perverts, Gibson or perverts.......?

So a bunch of perverts are going to cry anti-Semitism, go after Gibson personally, and tell people not to go? You can't buy that kind of publicity. Absent some kind of boycott or intimidation attempt, which I wouldn't rule out, I sense that it will be one of the all-time hits of the sliver screen.

[welfareworker]

Unfortunately Doc Johnson doesn't have a clue.

You live in a parish, and you go to its church.” Every place in California is already part of a parish, which has its own church.

Canon 1248 allows Catholics to attend wherever the Mass is said in a Catholic rite.

Gibson probably remembers only the Latin Mass that wasn’t finalized until 1962.

The last revision of the Latin missal was published in 1962. Hardly the same as saying the traditional Mass wasn't finalized in 1962.

mandating simplification of the liturgy and the use of the local vernacular languages instead of Latin everywhere.

The Vatican council didn't mandate the vernacular in any way shape or form. I don't know where he got this.

And with a little effort, he says, “you can get a Latin Mass celebrated regularly at your proper parish,

Not likely, many bishops have barred it from their dioceses, and the number of staff who actually know how to say traditional mass is pretty small.

Doc Johnson is clueless, sounds like his PHD was purchased from the back of a matchbook and his associate status with the Canon Law Society is similar to the associate status of the janitors at Walmart.

[NYer]

I'm missing something.

In researching Mel Gibson's mass attendance, no one resource specifically used the acronym SSPX. USAWeekend writes the following:

"As for his religious beliefs, Gibson, 47, a father of seven, is a member of the conservative traditionalist Catholic movement, which still celebrates mass in Latin. He's also the financial backer of a church called Holy Family, being built near Malibu for a congregation of about 70. "

Do you suppose this is a FSSP congregation? Do they maintain their own churches? According to the FSSP web site:

"The main work of the Fraternity of St. Peter is the operation of pastoral missions throughout the United States and Canada, for it is in the parish that the souls of the laity are formed and nourished in the sacramental and catechetical life of the Church. The Fraternity currently operates apostolates in over twenty North American dioceses."

The fact that they are operating at the diocesan level, would suggest to me that they are working in diocesan churches. Which brings us back to Gibson's construction of a church. Who authorized him to do so? Who will bless it and consecrate the altar? Isn't that normally the function of the bishop?

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

My understanding of schism is this: a priest or society must have the intention of separating themselves from the Pope by denying his authority to command. Essentially, I think that is sedevacantism. Ultima or Maximilian may be able to explain this better than I can.

This is why the SSPX is not in schism but in an irregular situation with Rome. They do not deny the Pope's authority to command but refuse to obey elements which are not in line with Tradition. Disobedience is not schism, much like a child who is disobedient to a parent is still the parent's child. Msgr. Perle has written a letter to the faithful stating that attendance at SSPX Masses is acceptable. If SSPX was in schism he would not have said this.

Mahony has no control over the SSPX in his diocese. They are not part of it, yet their Masses and Sacraments are valid.

I don't know whether Mel or his priest are sedevacantist or not. I do know that his exhibition of Catholic faith is the stuff of Mahony's nightmares.

[Tax-chick]

The FSSP only ministers where they are invited or given permission by the local Bishop. Usually they start out using a diocesan church or other facility (such as a chapel at a chancery facility or college.) Then, when they have a stable congregation and sufficient income, they will buy and renovate or build a church of their own.

[sinkspur]

Which brings us back to Gibson's construction of a church. Who authorized him to do so?

If Mahoney didn't authorize construction of this chapel, then he's building it extra-ecclesia, that is, without proper authority.

Who will bless it and consecrate the altar? Isn't that normally the function of the bishop?

Yes. If he intends to use it for the SSPX, then an SSPX bishop (Williamson or Fellay) will have to consecrate the building.

[sydney smith]

Typical novus ordo 'shepherds': Weakland, Cawcutt, Mahony, Hubbard. Give me a break. No wonder nobody cares about God's law anymore with jackasses like these interpreting it for us.

[NYer]

This is why the SSPX is not in schism but in an irregular situation with Rome.

Schism Refusal to obey the rightful authority of Divinely constituted hierarchy of the Church. A person who knowingly and obstinately disobeys the hierarchy is called a schismatic. Canon Law #751 says "Schism is the withdrawal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or from communion with the members of the Church subject to him."

I realize that the SSPX prays for the pope at their masses but, according to this definition (from www.ourladyswarriors.org web site), the SSPX is in schism. What am I missing?

[Tantumergo]

"I do know that his exhibition of Catholic faith is the stuff of Mahony's nightmares."

I think the whole premise of this article sets out on the wrong tack. Rather than asking whether Gibson is a Catholic, they ought to be asking whether Mahoney is a Catholic.

Quite apart from his doubtful Eucharistic theology, he has questioned the Pope's ruling on a male-only priesthood. According to the doctrinal note issued by the CDF which accompanied the Motu Proprio Ad Tuendam Fidem, people who subscribe to this opinion are not in full Communion with the Catholic Church:

"The second proposition of the "Professio fidei" states: 'I also firmly accept and hold each and everything definitively proposed by the Church regarding teaching on faith and morals.' The object taught by this formula includes all those teachings belonging to the dogmatic or moral area, which are necessary for faithfully keeping and expounding the deposit of faith, even if they have not been proposed by the Magisterium of the Church as formally revealed. Every believer, therefore, is required to give firm and definitive assent to these truths, based on faith in the Holy Spirit's assistance to the Church's Magisterium, and on the Catholic doctrine of the infallibility of the Magisterium in these matters. Whoever denies these truths would be in a position of rejecting a truth of Catholic doctrine and would therefore NO LONGER BE IN FULL COMMUNION WITH THE CATHOLIC CHURCH."

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

The SSPX is not in schism. They recognize and submit to the Pope's authority but they do not obey commands which are contrary to the Faith as it has existed for 2000 years.

Obedience to human beings is not the supreme virtue. If it was, then it would be better to obey heretics (Mahony, Weakland, etc) than adhere to the Faith itself. The Magisterium are the custodians of the Faith. They are to be obeyed as long as they teach what has always been taught.

Obedience to the Faith as it has existed for 2000 years is what is required. That is why it is so important to be educated in the Faith and why so many souls are being led astray and lost.

[NYer]

Typical novus ordo 'shepherds': Weakland, Cawcutt, Mahony, Hubbard. Give me a break. No wonder nobody cares about God's law anymore with jackasses like these interpreting it for us.

You left a few out! Rochester Bishop Clarke comes to mind.

You're still out of step with The Magisterium. If every catholic decided that the Rite they wanted to be offered up in their local parish was .... take your choice - there are many rites recognized by the Roman Catholic Church, weekend services at the diocesan level would turn into pandemonium. What's to prevent me from asking my bishop for permission to have the Ambrosian Rite celebrated at my parish?

After the Consecration, during the "Unde et memores", the Celebrant opens his arms forming a cross signifying that the Holy Sacrifice has been accomplished by the priest "in persona Christi", while the Choir sings the "Benedictus"

AMBROSIAN RITE

[B Knotts]

One possible inaccuracy in this article, which could make a huge difference: the author refers to Mel Gibson's place of worship as "Church of the Holy Family," whereas other sources refer to it as "Holy Family Chapel."

If I recall correctly, a church must be authorized and consecrated by the diocesan bishop, whereas a chapel need not be. Does that sound right to you?

[sinkspur]

If I recall correctly, a church must be authorized and consecrated by the diocesan bishop, whereas a chapel need not be. Does that sound right to you?

Well, a stand-alone chapel still needs to be consecrated, if it is Catholic. I read on this thread that this "chapel" has a "congregation" of 70. Sounds like some kind of independent Catholic group, to me.

Whether or not one likes Mahoney, he is still the ordinary for Los Angeles. If Gibson built this chapel outside of his approval, then it's likely SSPX or even SSPV (though I can't imagine him submitting his movie to the Vatican if he thought the chair of Peter was unoccupied.)