[dangus]

What seems odd to me is that Havoc seems to discount the need for baptism. JESUS was baptized, but he thinks we don't need to be? John and Acts pretty much describe the disciples baptizing at every turn... but it was just optional, I guess.

[Havoc]

Havoc doesn't discount water baptism, he just sees it as Christ sees it. It's like circumcision, an outward sign, not an inward one. Christ commanded that we be baptised; but, with fire - in the holy spirit as it were. That was and is Christ's baptism. John's baptism was and is the baptism of the old covenant - in water. This baptism is still practiced by the Israelites under judaism. You are hungup on the same carnal issues one would expect you to be hungup on. The thief on the cross wasn't baptised in water. Why? Simple, he didn't need to be. God looked at the inward man and knew Him. It is men who want outward signs, God wants inward repentance and obedience. We are not of John's baptism as Christians. We are of Christ's.
We are not of the physical circumcision; but, of the spiritual. Carnal minds and unbelievers do not or will not get this.