Religion and Ritual

gotterdammerung

[Gotterdammerung]

Why are the words 'religion' and 'ritual' demonized so much by evangelicals? It seems also they put down the role of the Church as necessary for faith. Isn't the personal relationship theme a bit over-emphasized? Why would the church be necessary if a personal relationship with Christ is all one needs? And, regarding 'ritual'; it seems to me that even the most free thinking evangelicals do ritual in many ways.

[reed_inthe_wind]

I am not going to spend time on this thread - except I will tell people of a fascinating book that gives a very refreshing interpetation of liturgy by exploring its biblical foundation predominately by juxtaposing liturgy to the Book of Revelation: the book is titled "The lamb's Supper" by Scott Hahn from Doubleday

[Alkhin]

I think these are VERY LEGITIMATE questions and need to be asked. For too long have we had this "God as I Feel Him/Her" philosophy of worship and its breaking down the spiritual life of many Americans, rather than increasing it.

I am reminded of what Jews have to say (obliquely) about the matter of following a spiritual life and walking in the sight of God : a mentor, or one who has walked that way himself/herself, is strongly encouraged. Judaism rarely says "fend for yourself" when it comes to developing a closer relationship with God. I think 2000 years of Christianity would easily say the same thing.

Monastic practices speak toward this.

[WackyKat]

Why are you posting a religious vanity in the Breaking News forum?

Have you not seen the frequent requests from moderators that this not be done?

[nmh]

"Church as necessary for faith" LOL! The "church" is NOT necessary for faith. Faith is an individual decision. It is not a "church" decision. "Rituals" will not "save" anyone - once again it goes back to the individual. The body of believers, who rely on the Bible is the "church". Some folks are taken with appearances i.e. what the "church" wants through rituals. God looks at our hearts. At some point as individuals we will ALL stand before Him and account for our life - not the "church" you speak of.

[nmh]

http://www.christian-church.net/


Christian Church: What it Means?

Christian Church - At its root, the word "church" means a "called-out group." In the New Testament of the Bible, the term is used in two specific ways:

(1) a local church or single organized group of Christians and
(2) the universal church or body of Christ.

The universal church is made up of all believers in Christ, from the day of Pentecost in Acts to the end-times of Revelation. The local church is a visible and temporal representation of the universal church.

Christian Church: It's Origin

The Christian Church was a "mystery" hidden throughout the Old Testament of the Bible. Later, Jesus first prophesied the coming of the church when He spoke to Peter and declared,

"On this rock I will build My church" (Matthew 16:18).

Here, Jesus is making a play on words, since he earlier changed Peter's name from Simon to Peter, which means "rock."

The traditional view of when the Christian Church actually started was the Day of Pentecost (50 days after the Passover during which Jesus was crucified). It was at this time that Peter gave his great sermon, and in response,

"about 3,000 souls were added to them [the apostles]" (Acts 2:41).

This group of believers was first called "the church" in Acts 2:47, as

"God added to the church daily those who were being saved."

Christian Church: It's Purpose

As a body, the ultimate purpose for the Christian Church is to bring glory to its Head, Jesus Christ. As the church brings honor to Christ, it also fulfills two specific purposes related to God's plan for the earth:

(1) evangelism to non-believers and
(2) edification for fellow members of the church.

Among other things, the church is also known as the bride of Christ and the living temple of the true God. Obviously, the church is not a building, a meeting place, an organization, or a denomination. The church is the totality of all believers in Christ, regardless of denomination or meeting place. The entire body of believers is the church, and as such, the church is the dwelling place of God.

Christian Church: Become a Member

The Christian Church is comprised of those who have been redeemed by Christ who died on the cross and rose again. They are justified by faith in Christ alone. They are not saved by false teachers, compromised gospels, by their works, by a building, or by a religious ritual. They are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone.

Hope this helps. Many "churches" believe they "save" people through works, rituals, or "religion". That is false.

[freebilly]

Why are the words 'religion' and 'ritual' demonized so much by evangelicals?

Fundies (and I count myself one) have pared down the Message to its core. Many of those who worship in churches that are heavy in ritual confuse the ritual with the real message of the church.

Case in point: My son-in-law is nominally Catholic. He does not attend church, he has no "relationship" with Christ. He will, however, baptise his daughter in the Catholic Church. He will also have her receive her First Communion in the Church.

These occasions are more social and cultural events than they are spiritual events. His side of the family will gather and have an all day celebration. The men will retreat to the garage and drink Budweiser and Tequila, and the women will gather in the living room to exchange gossip and to hold each others' babies.

Now I'm sure that many Evangelicals use their own church as one of their main sources for social contact, but I guarantee you that the underlying context for celebrations is different. On the day my 9 year old son was baptised along with twenty other church members, we held a bar-b-que for those who were baptised and for the families who had attended. All who attended were more closely united as brothers and sisters in Christ. The sacrament of Baptism brought us closer together as a church family.

[Aliska]

The older forms of Christianity have become overly ritualized. Certain key rituals were obviously intended, but when every part of church life becomes a ritual, down to no prayers but those written by someone else (prayed habitually and ritually), it becomes stifling and boring. Jesus was a Person, not a ritual.

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

Baptism is a ritual. It is necessary for salvation (excepting baptism of desire).

Marriage is also a ritual. Are fundies ready to purge their faith of those two rituals? It would be theologically consistent.

[newberger]

Fundies (and I count myself one) have pared down the Message to its core.

By what possible authority or logic is it possible or valid to "pare down" the faith?

Many of those who worship in churches that are heavy in ritual confuse the ritual with the real message of the church. Case in point: My son-in-law is nominally Catholic. He does not attend church, he has no "relationship" with Christ.

Maybe this is a BAD example. If you use nominal believers from any tradition, you'll get the same result. Nominal Baptists don't attend church or have a vital relationship with the Lord, either.

He will, however, baptise his daughter in the Catholic Church. He will also have her receive her First Communion in the Church.

Perhaps this is better news than you think. First it keeps him in contact with his Church. Second, it forces him to have his child receive SOME training in the faith.

...His side of the family will gather and have an all day celebration. The men will retreat to the garage and drink Budweiser and Tequila, and the women will gather in the living room to exchange gossip and to hold each others' babies.

Now I'm sure that many Evangelicals use their own church as one of their main sources for social contact, but I guarantee you that the underlying context for celebrations is different.

Of course it's different. If you were a family that was a committed Catholic family with a nominal Evangelical son-in-law, the example would go the other way!

[newberger]

The older forms of Christianity have become overly ritualized. Certain key rituals were obviously intended, but when every part of church life becomes a ritual, down to no prayers but those written by someone else (prayed habitually and ritually), it becomes stifling and boring. Jesus was a Person, not a ritual.

Who told you that those of us in the "older" churches (I am Orthodox Christian) ONLY use liturgical prayer". It's not true at all. When we worship together, we use the words that countless generations have found helpful. I assure you that, countrary to your expectations, it is still vibrant and living. When we worship privately, we add our own words and thoughts and talk to our Father as I am sure you do.

Jesus is more of a living reality to me now in liturgical worship and prayer than when I was an Evangelical (which was 90% of my Christian life).

Please, don't try to force your your assumptions and expectations into other people's experience!

[onedoug]

God said in Genesis, "You shall be Holy because I am Holy.

It's compelling to sanctify life but what you do.

By observing the Sabbath. By what you eat. By sex within marriage. By goodness given of yourself.

All these are physical. Ritual.

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

Why are you posting that to me? Do I have a target sign on my back for Orthodox nastiness?

[freebilly]

I see you've used my insights to bolster your beliefs in what you already know.

I might as well have a conversation with a TV.

Good day....

[nmh]

These are not "rituals" and you know it.

[Alkhin]

All who attended were more closely united as brothers and sisters in Christ.

Or so you imagine! A collective feel good moment is not any more a 'body of Christ' than saying an individual interpretation of the Bible is. Since you hold ritual in such contempt, would you then eschew what Christ commanded us at the Last Supper "Do this in remembrance of Me." The entire 'ritualistic' Christian Church is built around the Eucharist, which is indeed the Core of the Message, which so many claim to have in their efforts to rid themselves of 'ritual' and tradition. Yet there is just as much unhappiness and shallowness of spirit within those groups that claim to have the answer of the Bible as there is in the catholic traditions. I am beginning to believe that what is desperately missing is those people who are of a monastic tradition. They devote their lives to the study and contemplation of the Word of God, and serve as teachers. They preserved the Christian world in the "Dark Ages."

The sense I get from the fundies is that they would prefer to just leave it up to the individual...and I can tell you right now, if it were simply left up to me, I woudl find other things to spend my time on. I don't like having to approach God on my own. I am not worthy of Him anyway. But it helps to know that I have the support of those who have gone before. And that support is expressed in ritual and tradition.

[freebilly]

Yet there is just as much unhappiness and shallowness of spirit within those groups that claim to have the answer of the Bible as there is in the catholic traditions.

Probably..., but the real advantage to being an evangelical is that your son has less chance of being molested by a spiritual leader of the church....

[freebilly]

One of the rituals of the recent Catholic and Episcopalian churches....

[Conservative til I die]

It's because they're Protestants. The word means 'one who protests.' The entire Protestant belief system hinges on Catholicism. Protesting Catholicism to be precise. Catholics are into rituals and "religion." Hence Protestants are not.

That's why they used to go around central Europe, when they were persecuting us, and urinated (literally) on our altars, tabernacles, statues of Christ and the saints.

[Conservative til I die]

"Church as necessary for faith" LOL! The "church" is NOT necessary for faith. Faith is an individual decision. It is not a "church" decision. "Rituals" will not "save" anyone - once again it goes back to the individual. The body of believers, who rely on the Bible is the "church". Some folks are taken with appearances i.e. what the "church" wants through rituals. God looks at our hearts. At some point as individuals we will ALL stand before Him and account for our life - not the "church" you speak of.

Spoken with the true arrogance of someone who believes Christianity started the day he was born/converted.

"What's this you say? 2000 years of Church history? Piss on that!"