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To: FormerLib
"Explain how this is true. I believe you've misused the term."

I might be mistaken on the name, but the technical name for the fallacy I believe you are guilty of is the "package deal" logical fallacy

Another way to put it is this.

The Bible makes clear that Jesus spoke in parables such that he intended for SOME not to understand.

It is your contention that it is impossible for ALL to fail to understand a simple thing like "I am the door" or "I am the vine"...

Therefore, you conclude, that since it is impossible for ALL to misunderstand those simple concepts, then "simple concepts" are not Parables.

You, therefore, are concluding that "this is my body" and "this is my bread" are a simple concept and not a parable intended to confuse.

The problem is that it is not true that Parables confuse ALL persons who are lost. It is true that Parables confuse SOME persons who are lost. Therefore, for you to find a group of people who are not confused by a parable and then to declare that the parable is not a parable is logically fallacious because there might just be some other persons who are indeed confused by the parable.

But I will give a different counter argument if you wish. In your original statement, you made the claim:

"Also, how many followers left because they couldn’t reconcile the fact that Christ used the imagery of a door or a vine? They understood the use of imagery, which is why they were scandalized by Christ’s statements in John: 6"

Actually, they did not "understand" Jesus. For we read in John 6:52

52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

Re-read that passage and you will see that Jesus never attempts to clarify his words. In fact, Jesus even more bluntly alludes to a cannibalistic idea:

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

We read the result in vs 60,66:

60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?

66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

This is precisely the scenario we read in Matthew 13 and Mark 4.

Jean

354 posted on 12/04/2003 12:01:18 PM PST by Jean Chauvin (Sola Scriptura---Sola Fida---Sola Gracia---Sola Christus---Soli Deo Gloria)
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To: Jean Chauvin
The Bible makes clear that Jesus spoke in parables such that he intended for SOME not to understand.

It is your contention that it is impossible for ALL to fail to understand a simple thing like "I am the door" or "I am the vine"...

No, that is not my contention at all. I believe you are debating what you believe me to be saying, not what I am actually saying.

Of course, I realized that when you went into the "I am the door, I am the vine" routine. It is a well rehearsed attack on the real presence in the Eucharist that attempts to use a volume of rhetoric to overwhelm the target. I'm not impressed by it in anyway.

It is my contention that when Jesus spoke "This is my body," He was speaking the truth and not in a parable or metaphor. To get me to change my mind, you need only prove that He was lying.

356 posted on 12/04/2003 12:17:25 PM PST by FormerLib
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