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To: Dr Warmoose
>>Your argument fails on every point:
>>Demands made in Scripture are just that - demands. God commands all sinners to repent, yet few do. Demands are made all of the time in Scripture, and rarely every fulfilled. The only demands that really do find its completion are those that God demands of Himself. >>

Actually, what it does is demonstrate that the "Reformation" was sinful. If the early Protestants were right, they should've done what the Jesuits did: Continue within the church to promulgate their viewpoints until they are adopted by the Church. Learn about Ignatius of Loyola or Francis of Assissi or Catherin of Sienna (or dozens of other reformers) before you accept that schism was necessary because of the sinful state of the church.

That being said, what I argued was not that the bible commands that there be one church, but rather that it insists that there *shall* be one church. "I shall build my Church (singular), and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it." Doesn't say, "should not prevail against it." It says "shall not."

>> There is no singular protestant church (noting your use of the definite article). Therefore whatever you tried to point out is invalid. >>

No, that's my POINT, that the very commonly used Protestant apologetic that all the protestants who agree with the given apologist comprise a single "church of all believers" regardless of their denomination is not valid.

>>To say that because the protestant church has allegedly failed makes it aximatic that the Roman Catholic Cartel has succeeded is a non-sequitor.>>

Except that's not what I'm saying. I never claimed my one post was a comprehensive apologetic. I plainly acknowledge that one could read what I wrote, agree with it, and become an Orthodox Christian.

>> You probably get what you feel are ad-hominems

Oh right... I only "feel" the cheap shot about pederast priests was an ad hominem...
72 posted on 11/15/2003 6:42:37 AM PST by dangus
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To: dangus
Actually, what it does is demonstrate that the "Reformation" was sinful.

The 'Reformation' as in each and every deed, or the 'Reformation' as a philosophical/theological abstract? In case of the former, then the argument against Rome is similar unless you think Tomás de Torquemada and his merry men were in perfect Scriptural obedience. In the case of the latter, you need to explain why simony and indulgences don't have the prominence now as they did then at the time (and cause) of the Protestant break-off. You do recall the bulk of Luther's protests in the 95 Thesis, right?

It is also interesting that you talk about "Protestants" then jump to "Reformation". Thomas Aquinas and Augustine were rather "reformed" in their doctrines yet were not classified as "Protestant". The "Reformation" was an attempt to correct centuries of Roman assualts and abuses on Biblical doctrines, it wasn't until the Protestant movement where that Augustinian remnant could actually observe and speak of true doctrine without fear of being tortured or immolated by Rome's brutal monopoly of all things religious.

... before you accept that schism was necessary because of the sinful state of the church...

Why? look no further than Rome's attempt to destroy Martin Luther. Ignatius of Loyola and Francis of Assissi had no fear of reprisal from a jealous "church" because they were protected under the basic concept of the Mark 3:23 Principle. Luther's opposition to the kleptocracy which defined Rome's leadership through the sale of indulgences was as offensive as a Republican recommending that the 16th Amendment be repealed. Of course they wanted Luther dead! (Which seems to be the ultimate debate technique - agree with us or be tortured. Truth through edict and sword)

...the bible commands that there be one church, but rather that it insists that there *shall* be one church. "...

No one argues that, it is just that your doctrinal myopia (undoubtably a result of being spoon-fed filtered Roman synthesized "truth") prevents you from recognizing that the Roman Cartel has it wrong as most Protestant denominations - in that the church is not formed by simply opening doors to whoever cares to wander in, (or in Rome's case whoever is compelled to convert or suffer pain and death), but is put together by the Paraclete. This "church" needs no intermediary other than Jesus Christ, and it doesn't need to have some Dope of a Pope conjure up fresh revelations to placate the social and political expediences of the moment.

The "church" of believers isn't realized the moment they kiss the Pope's ring, it is when the Spirit regenerates. Rome would have everyone believe that they hold a person's soul in their hands. (Though Vatican II seems to have reversed that "truth" into a more moderate "truth")

...Except that's not what I'm saying. I never claimed my one post was a comprehensive apologetic....

Then you are elephant hurling, because your argument was based (and appears to still be based) on the contested concept that the "church" God had in mind was a political organization centered in Rome. To mischaracterize all of Protestantism because some low-lifes ordain a faggot as a bishop, or the American Religion follows the Roman Catholic pattern of syncretizing every possible pagan and secular belief and practice into something titled "Holy Church Tradition" - then hypocritically saying all of the Protestant movement is a sham, is not what I call a solid arguemnt for the divine perfection of Roman Catholicism.

78 posted on 11/15/2003 8:12:40 AM PST by Dr Warmoose
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To: dangus; Dr Warmoose
Actually, what it does is demonstrate that the "Reformation" was sinful. If the early Protestants were right, they should've done what the Jesuits did: Continue within the church to promulgate their viewpoints until they are adopted by the Church.

It is interesting that you should use the Jesuits in your example, the same group which was formed to hunt down and see to the disposition of (usually death) of those terrible Protestants.

How did the Jesuits continue within the church after being banned by Pope Clement XIV? Certainly not by obedience to the Pope. Fifth column?

104 posted on 11/15/2003 11:56:58 AM PST by OLD REGGIE ((I am a cult of one! UNITARJEWMIAN))
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To: dangus; All
Why do all of you dislike each other so much? I for the life of me don't understand this animosity between Catholics and protestants on here!

I thought it was bad on the political forum here, but this religion boards are where the real battles are. It is a shame since we all worship the same God. I had no idea this war was going on! For the record, I think that if You believe Jesus is Lord you are a Christian. That is the simple Gospel that man has made so complicated.

Oh well, carry on. I mostly lurk, it seems safer! :-)
144 posted on 11/15/2003 11:32:46 PM PST by ladyinred (Talk about a revolution, look at California!!! We dumped Davis!!!)
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