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Elderly cardinals in revolt over voting power
ABC News ^ | October 24, 2003 | ABC News Online

Posted on 10/26/2003 9:13:14 AM PST by american colleen

Newspaper says elderly cardinals seeking vote in conclave

The Italian daily La Repubblica reported yesterday that 59 octogenarian cardinals have written to Pope John Paul II asking him to reinstate their right to elect the next Pope.

Pope Paul VI ruled in 1970 that cardinals would relinquish their right to vote in the conclave after their 80th birthday.

Two of Australia's three cardinals will lose their vote by the middle of next year. Former Sydney Archbishop Cardinal Edward Clancy (pictured right, with Cardinal Pell) turns 80 in December, and former Vatican official Cardinal Edward Cassidy turns 80 next June.

La Repubblica said that the 59 cardinals aged 80 and over have written to the Holy Father, asking him to reinstate their voting rights. The Pope is yet to reply.

"Without the right to vote we are half-cardinals, second division cardinals," the paper quoted one octogenarian cardinal as saying.

Currently, the college of cardinal electors comprises 135 cardinals under the age of 80. 59 others are over age.

"All the cardinals over 80 feel this way. It's an inconceivable rule. A cardinal is there, first and foremost, to elect a pope and thereafter to follow him," said another.

Italian Cardinal Giovanni Cheli, 85, told the paper that "in effect, we feel a little robbed," though he personally had not made an issue of it "because Paul VI must have had his reasons for taking his decision."

Elderly cardinals in revolt over voting power: report

Elderly Roman Catholic cardinals are in revolt over Vatican rules banning them from taking part in the election of the next pope, and have requested Pope John Paul II to abolish the over-80 age limit, the daily La Republica reported Thursday.

The newspaper said that 59 cardinals aged 80 and over have written to the pontiff asking him to reinstate their voting rights, abolished by pope Paul VI in 1970.

The pontiff, who is 83, has not replied, the paper said.

"Without the right to vote we are half-cardinals, second division cardinals," the paper quoted one octogenarian cardinal as saying.

Currently, the college of cardinal electors comprises 135 cardinals under the age of 80.

Fifty-nine others are over age.

"All the cardinals over 80 feel this way. It's an inconceivable rule. A cardinal is there, first and foremost, to elect a pope and thereafter to follow him," said another.

Italian Cardinal Giovanni Cheli, 85, told the paper that "in effect, we feel a little robbed," though he personally had not made an issue of it "because Paul VI must have had his reasons for taking his decision."


TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events; General Discusssion
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Two articles in one.
1 posted on 10/26/2003 9:13:14 AM PST by american colleen
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To: sinkspur; ELS; BlackElk; Aquinasfan; NYer; Catholicguy; Desdemona; maryz; patent; narses; ...
Interesting article(s).

Why did Pope Paul IV ban cardinals past the age of 80 from voting in the conclaves?

2 posted on 10/26/2003 9:15:37 AM PST by american colleen
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To: american colleen
Two articles in one.

No, it's the same article, repeated.

Must have been written by someone over 80.

3 posted on 10/26/2003 9:19:36 AM PST by sinkspur (Adopt a dog or a cat from a shelter. You will save one life, and may save two.)
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To: american colleen
This is obviously a traditionalist interpretation, but I've read that the rule was imposed to keep cardinals with a "pre-conciliar mentality" from voting in the next conclave. Since Cardinal Alfons Stickler, 93, is the only living cardinal I know of today who could possibly be described as having a "pre-conciliar mentality," it's hard to see how this still applies.
4 posted on 10/26/2003 9:24:44 AM PST by royalcello
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To: sinkspur
Same information, different sources - the top one listed the bottom one as the source.

Must have been written by someone over 80.

LOL! But the pope himself is over 80 and choosing cardinals so I'm not sure we can blanket everyone over age 80 as being senile and incapable of working with the Holy Spirit.

5 posted on 10/26/2003 9:24:53 AM PST by american colleen
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To: royalcello
Stickler

Love that guy.

Thanks for the input. I guess I'll have to google around and find out why Pope Paul VI did what he did. If what you say is true, then all those old cardinals are dead anyway and it would seem like that decree should have been a "one time only" act... and if the decree was to minimize the possible senility problem then it seems that the Holy Spirit was ignored and that no one should be pope after age 80.

There must be some other reason. (?)

6 posted on 10/26/2003 9:28:30 AM PST by american colleen
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To: american colleen
Why did Pope Paul IV ban cardinals past the age of 80 from voting in the conclaves?

I have no idea, other than the theory that Paul VI caught a lot of grief from guys like Ottaviani (over 80) and a few others over the Novus Ordo, and he might have thought ultra-oldsters would be nothing but reactionaries.

I doubt JP II will let them vote.

He wouldn't have named this new batch of cardinals if he had had an intention of letting these octogenarians vote.

7 posted on 10/26/2003 9:29:15 AM PST by sinkspur (Adopt a dog or a cat from a shelter. You will save one life, and may save two.)
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To: american colleen
But the pope himself is over 80 and choosing cardinals so I'm not sure we can blanket everyone over age 80 as being senile and incapable of working with the Holy Spirit.

We don't really know how much the Pope is involved in day-to-day decisions.

The odds of an octogenarian being on cruise-control is much greater, don't you think, than a guy in his 60's?

8 posted on 10/26/2003 9:32:42 AM PST by sinkspur (Adopt a dog or a cat from a shelter. You will save one life, and may save two.)
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To: Akron Al; Alberta's Child; Andrew65; AniGrrl; Antoninus; apologia_pro_vita_sua; ...
Octogenarian Senators such as Robert Byrd and Fritz Hollings can vote on budgets, judges and treaties, but octogenarian Cardinals can`t vote for the Pope. Where is the justice in that?
9 posted on 10/26/2003 10:12:56 AM PST by Loyalist
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To: sinkspur
I have no idea, other than the theory that Paul VI caught a lot of grief from guys like Ottaviani (over 80) and a few others over the Novus Ordo, and he might have thought ultra-oldsters would be nothing but reactionaries.

If true, that is terrible and really, personally "stacking the deck" - and assuming that most of the younger cardinals were progressives. Seems like PPVI could have used those "reactionaries" when he promulgated HV.

The odds of an octogenarian being on cruise-control is much greater, don't you think, than a guy in his 60's?

Sure, but the Holy Spirit doesn't play into that mode of thought at all.

10 posted on 10/26/2003 10:19:52 AM PST by american colleen
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To: Loyalist
And I don't think guys like Robert Byrd and Fritz Hollings are guided by the Holy Spirit, either ;-)
11 posted on 10/26/2003 10:20:43 AM PST by american colleen
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To: american colleen
Sure, but the Holy Spirit doesn't play into that mode of thought at all.

The Holy Spirit works through our human natures, He doesn't supercede them. A cardinal who's out of it is going to be out of it, unless the Holy Spirit Himself takes over his body.

12 posted on 10/26/2003 10:24:38 AM PST by sinkspur (Adopt a dog or a cat from a shelter. You will save one life, and may save two.)
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To: Loyalist
Octogenarian Senators such as Robert Byrd and Fritz Hollings can vote on budgets, judges and treaties, but octogenarian Cardinals can`t vote for the Pope.

Even Democrats cringe when Byrd and Hollings open their mouths, of late.

It's likely a man like Karol Wojtyla wouldn't have been elected if the over-80 cardinals had been able to vote in 1978.

13 posted on 10/26/2003 10:30:42 AM PST by sinkspur (Adopt a dog or a cat from a shelter. You will save one life, and may save two.)
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To: Loyalist
Octogenarian Senators such as Robert Byrd and Fritz Hollings can vote on budgets, judges and treaties, but octogenarian Cardinals can`t vote for the Pope. Where is the justice in that?

I didn't realize the College of Cardinals was part of a tricameral United States Congress and subject to its rule.

I also didn't realize the Vatican and the Catholic Church was part of the United States.

I mean, you can surely disagree with the policy, but don't start bringing up completely asinine arguments like this one. Come on, really.

Or are you being sarcastic?
14 posted on 10/26/2003 10:39:08 AM PST by Conservative til I die
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To: Conservative til I die
Knock it off, CITD. You know as well as I do what the effects of denying these men their rightful vote and voice was and remains.
15 posted on 10/26/2003 11:14:17 AM PST by Loyalist
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To: Conservative til I die
Hot air is as hot air does. We all know what Loyalist was suggesting. Why get smart with him?
16 posted on 10/26/2003 11:14:33 AM PST by Robert Drobot (God, family, country. All else is meaningless.)
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To: Loyalist
You know as well as I do what the effects of denying these men their rightful vote and voice was and remains.

So does JP II, which is why it is likely he will not restore their voting privileges.

17 posted on 10/26/2003 11:17:45 AM PST by sinkspur (Adopt a dog or a cat from a shelter. You will save one life, and may save two.)
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To: Loyalist
No, I'm not backing down. Either you were being sarcastic or you were using a ridiculous and inane argument in favor of over-80 cardinals voting.

Arguing that Cardinals over 80 should vote because Robert Byrd gets to, frankly, it doesn't get any more stupid than that.
18 posted on 10/26/2003 11:26:25 AM PST by Conservative til I die
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To: Robert Drobot
Because, if he was serious, and I did suggest in my post that he might have been sarcastic, but if he was serious, that may have been the lamest argument I have ever heard in my tenure here on FR. And if you're going to put out stupid arguments, don't whine and cry when someone calls you on it.

Suggesting that the reason Cardinals over 80 should vote in the next conclave is because we allow Senators over 80 to vote in the United States is seriously dumb.
19 posted on 10/26/2003 11:28:13 AM PST by Conservative til I die
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To: Conservative til I die
Suggesting that the reason Cardinals over 80 should vote in the next conclave is because we allow Senators over 80 to vote in the United States is seriously dumb.

I'm probably out of my league here and this is going over my head -- BUT I took it to be a refutation of the senility over age 80 reason for eliminating men from making important decisions - in the secular or religious worlds. Nothing more and nothing less.

20 posted on 10/26/2003 12:35:59 PM PST by american colleen
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