Elderly cardinals in revolt over voting power

ABC News ^ | October 24, 2003 | ABC News Online

[american colleen]

Two articles in one.

[american colleen]

Interesting article(s).

Why did Pope Paul IV ban cardinals past the age of 80 from voting in the conclaves?

[sinkspur]

Two articles in one.

No, it's the same article, repeated.

Must have been written by someone over 80.

[royalcello]

This is obviously a traditionalist interpretation, but I've read that the rule was imposed to keep cardinals with a "pre-conciliar mentality" from voting in the next conclave. Since Cardinal Alfons Stickler, 93, is the only living cardinal I know of today who could possibly be described as having a "pre-conciliar mentality," it's hard to see how this still applies.

[american colleen]

Same information, different sources - the top one listed the bottom one as the source.

Must have been written by someone over 80.

LOL! But the pope himself is over 80 and choosing cardinals so I'm not sure we can blanket everyone over age 80 as being senile and incapable of working with the Holy Spirit.

[american colleen]

Stickler

Love that guy.

Thanks for the input. I guess I'll have to google around and find out why Pope Paul VI did what he did. If what you say is true, then all those old cardinals are dead anyway and it would seem like that decree should have been a "one time only" act... and if the decree was to minimize the possible senility problem then it seems that the Holy Spirit was ignored and that no one should be pope after age 80.

There must be some other reason. (?)

[sinkspur]

Why did Pope Paul IV ban cardinals past the age of 80 from voting in the conclaves?

I have no idea, other than the theory that Paul VI caught a lot of grief from guys like Ottaviani (over 80) and a few others over the Novus Ordo, and he might have thought ultra-oldsters would be nothing but reactionaries.

I doubt JP II will let them vote.

He wouldn't have named this new batch of cardinals if he had had an intention of letting these octogenarians vote.

[sinkspur]

But the pope himself is over 80 and choosing cardinals so I'm not sure we can blanket everyone over age 80 as being senile and incapable of working with the Holy Spirit.

We don't really know how much the Pope is involved in day-to-day decisions.

The odds of an octogenarian being on cruise-control is much greater, don't you think, than a guy in his 60's?

[Loyalist]

Octogenarian Senators such as Robert Byrd and Fritz Hollings can vote on budgets, judges and treaties, but octogenarian Cardinals can`t vote for the Pope. Where is the justice in that?

[american colleen]

I have no idea, other than the theory that Paul VI caught a lot of grief from guys like Ottaviani (over 80) and a few others over the Novus Ordo, and he might have thought ultra-oldsters would be nothing but reactionaries.

If true, that is terrible and really, personally "stacking the deck" - and assuming that most of the younger cardinals were progressives. Seems like PPVI could have used those "reactionaries" when he promulgated HV.

The odds of an octogenarian being on cruise-control is much greater, don't you think, than a guy in his 60's?

Sure, but the Holy Spirit doesn't play into that mode of thought at all.

[american colleen]

And I don't think guys like Robert Byrd and Fritz Hollings are guided by the Holy Spirit, either ;-)

[sinkspur]

Sure, but the Holy Spirit doesn't play into that mode of thought at all.

The Holy Spirit works through our human natures, He doesn't supercede them. A cardinal who's out of it is going to be out of it, unless the Holy Spirit Himself takes over his body.

[sinkspur]

Octogenarian Senators such as Robert Byrd and Fritz Hollings can vote on budgets, judges and treaties, but octogenarian Cardinals can`t vote for the Pope.

Even Democrats cringe when Byrd and Hollings open their mouths, of late.

It's likely a man like Karol Wojtyla wouldn't have been elected if the over-80 cardinals had been able to vote in 1978.

[Conservative til I die]

Octogenarian Senators such as Robert Byrd and Fritz Hollings can vote on budgets, judges and treaties, but octogenarian Cardinals can`t vote for the Pope. Where is the justice in that?

I didn't realize the College of Cardinals was part of a tricameral United States Congress and subject to its rule.

I also didn't realize the Vatican and the Catholic Church was part of the United States.

I mean, you can surely disagree with the policy, but don't start bringing up completely asinine arguments like this one. Come on, really.

Or are you being sarcastic?

[Loyalist]

Knock it off, CITD. You know as well as I do what the effects of denying these men their rightful vote and voice was and remains.

[Robert Drobot]

Hot air is as hot air does. We all know what Loyalist was suggesting. Why get smart with him?

[sinkspur]

You know as well as I do what the effects of denying these men their rightful vote and voice was and remains.

So does JP II, which is why it is likely he will not restore their voting privileges.

[Conservative til I die]

No, I'm not backing down. Either you were being sarcastic or you were using a ridiculous and inane argument in favor of over-80 cardinals voting.

Arguing that Cardinals over 80 should vote because Robert Byrd gets to, frankly, it doesn't get any more stupid than that.

[Conservative til I die]

Because, if he was serious, and I did suggest in my post that he might have been sarcastic, but if he was serious, that may have been the lamest argument I have ever heard in my tenure here on FR. And if you're going to put out stupid arguments, don't whine and cry when someone calls you on it.

Suggesting that the reason Cardinals over 80 should vote in the next conclave is because we allow Senators over 80 to vote in the United States is seriously dumb.

[american colleen]

Suggesting that the reason Cardinals over 80 should vote in the next conclave is because we allow Senators over 80 to vote in the United States is seriously dumb.

I'm probably out of my league here and this is going over my head -- BUT I took it to be a refutation of the senility over age 80 reason for eliminating men from making important decisions - in the secular or religious worlds. Nothing more and nothing less.