[anncoulteriscool]

Here is the article that Cal Thomas referenced in his column today.

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[Larry Lucido]

So, are they saving souls? Big, small...not much else matters, really.

[ItisaReligionofPeace]

I am not a religous person, but Joel Osteen is very good.

[sangoo]

Pastor Rick Warren, who founded Saddleback Church in Lake Forest, Calif., in 1980, has deftly used technology as well as marketing to spread his message. His Pastors.com, which reaches 100,000 pastors worldwide each week, has e-mail forums, archives of all of his sermons from the past 22 years and a place to post prayer requests.

Our new pastor is in love with Pastors.com and we hear one of Rick Warrens sermons, parroted by our paster, every week. I am really sick of 40 days of this and 50 days of that. On top of that we now have only "junk food" praise tunes. The worship leader is from the high school group and appears to want to be in show business someday. Fortunately we are moving out of the area and I won't have to force myself to attend much longer. Not much hope for finding a decent church where we are going...they all seem to be going this way.

[Blast Radius]

I think P.T. Barnum said it best.....

[P-Marlowe]

The secret to real church growth:

Act 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

[Zack Nguyen]

Fascinating article. The past 25 years have seen more changes in Christendom than at any time since the Protestant Reformation, imho. The faith is the same, the practice is radically different. These changes include:

1. The collapse of mainline Protestanism and it's descent into liberalism and irrelevance, coupled with the rise of evangelical, charismatic, and non-denominational churches.

2. The rise of the mega-church. I heard a statistic the other day (cannot remember the source), something to the effect of 50% of church-goers attending 10% of the churches by 2025.

3. The rise of parachurch ministries, as groups like Focus on the Family, Promise Keepers, Prison Fellowship, Christians on Campus, and others fill voids that individual churches cannot or do not.

4. The rise of the pro-life movement and the Religious Right.

5. The Word of Faith movement.

6. The rise of contemporary Christian music.

7. The switch from traditional hymns to praise choruses in worship.

Not saying all of these things are good. Some are not. But that is what this era will be remembered for by future historians.

[c-b 1]

ping

[NYer]

Lakewood makes sure to put on a grand show. It has a 12-piece stage band, a lighting designer to set the mood and three large projection screens.

All that's missing here is a chorus line ...

[Penner]

The book teaches pastors to think like entrepreneurs; for instance, encouraging them to set up strategic partnerships with nonchurch groups and to use event marketing to draw in new members.

This attitude is the reason why I no longer attend church services. I want to hear the Word, not be entertained.

[WillRain]

Too much said in the replies on this thread for me to point out my disagreements with all of them but two major points need to be made:

1. The "megachurch" phenomena - good or bad - is NOT the source of the moral decline in America. This trend has only been a real force in Chrisitnity for the last 20-25 years. The moral decline in America has been a steady trend for at least 40 if not 50 years. One can argue that megachurches are a result of moral decline, but not the reverse.

2. Every generation bemoans the leaving of the "old ways" of the one before it. Many of the "traditions" we worry about losing now are relativly recent inventions themselves. Edwards & Co. never had "alter calls" for instance. Almost all the hymms we consider fine old Godly songs were at one time brand new and quite a few of them were set to the tune of pub songs (Imagine the outrage if we sang a new hymn set to the tune of "I've Got Friends in Low Places," lol).
Further, every time one of these new "inovations" became popular it was because the old traditional ways had become a cliche to those outside the church.

Look, I'm not the greatest fan of churches over 10K members. Especially if they are not starting new churches (and Saddleback has started dozens of spinoff congregations) BUT they get a LOT of unjust criticism.

These churches (at least Saddleback and Willow Creek and those in that mold...can't speak of Lakewod or that den of heresy Dollar preaches at) are designed and targeted for those folks who would never attend a traditional "old fashioned service."
Which is better, a family come in their jeans and sing a praise corus see a drama and get saved, or stay home because they refuse to wear a suit and sing a 200 year old song and listen to a hellfire sermon and never know the love of Christ? How dare we suppose that they must not only come to Jesus (who IS the ONLY way) but they must come on OUR MAN MADE terms?

Now, that said, I don't think an already established church should go to that model unless the current congregation is in agreement because those folks need ministering too in the manner that reaches their hearts as well. A pastor who just arbitrarily tries to apply those methods which reach the anti-church crowd to long time believers is risking real trouble. But when used for it's designed purpose, I think it's just another facet of God's work.
Just as there is a great diversity between a Baptist service, a carismatic service and a Lutheran service, so this is just another deminsion of the wonderful diversity of ways to be touched by God - no better or worse than any of the others.

We definatly need to discern when someone like Dollar is preaching heresy, but I think I'll be careful about criticizing methodology - especially given how very few of our traditional methodoligies have direct Biblical precedent.

[Just another Joe]

My church would qualify as a mega church, just barely.
We just finished an over three year long look at the life of Christ. Passage by passage, verse by verse.

Are we saving souls? Yes.
Do we, "Put on a good show"? Yes.
The "Heart of America" Christmas Pageant is one of the largest in the midwest. We annually spend over $100,000 dollars on it and start getting ready for it, (music, casting, etc), in August or September. Not a penny of the money for it comes from the church budget. All the cast and crew are volunteers except for the church employees and even they volunteer on their off time.
Last year we had over 700 people make the decision to take Christ as their personal saviour during the pageant. That does not count the other people making that decision during the rest of the year.

The pastor uses scripture every Sunday to illuminate his message. If you're not using the scripture you're not saying the right things.

The first "big" church I've ever been a member of that still has a "small" church feel to it.

[biblewonk]

snip-defined as non-Catholic churches with at least 2,000 members--in the U.S. Indeed, Lakewood, New Birth, The Potter's House and World Changers,

What a convenient definition.

[MEGoody]

I think any church that operates a business, e.g. a recording studio, a book publisher, even a day care center, has to pay taxes on that business like anyone else would. Not sure why anyone would be concerned about it in that case.

[Porterville]

And I bet they are all beholden to the IRS

[Liberal Classic]

Interesting article. One of my family members wants me to go to Lakewood Church. I don't know Joel Osteen from Adam, but I do know that Benny Hinn recently held a church service at Lakewood for $75 a pop. What kind of 'church' charges admission? What I do know about Hinn I don't like, but said family member has asked me to come see one of Hinn's services later this month. Has anyone been or know someone who has been to one of Hinn's "healing crusades?" I don't know what to expect.

Two verses come to mind:

For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. (matthew)

and

Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. (thessalonians)

[ppaul]

"We really want it to feel like a concert," says Duncan Dodds, Lakewood's executive director.

Really?
Have a bunch of folks smoke joints to round out the feeling!

[Jack Armstrong]

Oh Lord, won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz ?
My friends all drive Porsches, I must make amends.
Worked hard all my lifetime, no help from my friends,
So Lord, won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz ?

Oh Lord, won't you buy me a color TV ?
Dialing For Dollars is trying to find me.
I wait for delivery each day until three,
So oh Lord, won't you buy me a color TV ?

Oh Lord, won't you buy me a night on the town ?
I'm counting on you, Lord, please don't let me down.
Prove that you love me and buy the next round,
Oh Lord, won't you buy me a night on the town ?

Everybody!
Oh Lord, won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz ?
My friends all drive Porsches, I must make amends,
Worked hard all my lifetime, no help from my friends,
So oh Lord, won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz ?

---

If Benny Hinn can wear a Rolex why didn't Saint Paul?
Well some would tell you Benny has more faith than Paul !
It's all about the BUCKS, not faith! It has nothing to do with getting the true message of New Spiritual Life in Jesus.
If it looks like the world - and it tastes like the world -and walks like the world - and talks like the world - then guess what. . .IT IS THE WORLD!!!!
Every promise made to the church of Christ Jesus in the new testament is a spirituasl promise. Every promise made to Abraham's seed was a materialistic (carnal)promise.
There fore I choose to hold to the promise of the Lord Jesus, my sight is set on eternal blessings not worldly "PROSPERITY BLESSINGS" offered to me by shallow TV evangelists on TBN. When you begin to understand what He sacrificed at calvary to bring that Eternal Life to all men you will seek to know Him. God pity those thousands of poor saps who sits in those gloriously carnal Crystal churches on Sunday and allow a man behind the pulpit to "tell" them how & what to believe. I would not trust my soul to a million dollar preacher with an Armani suit and a Rolex! Just try to find one of those "sheep" who can explain what happened in the garden. See if you can find one member of those Megachurches who can tell you why Jesus was the second Adam!

[Jack Armstrong]

Oh Lord, won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz ?
My friends all drive Porsches, I must make amends.
Worked hard all my lifetime, no help from my friends,
So Lord, won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz ?

Oh Lord, won't you buy me a color TV ?
Dialing For Dollars is trying to find me.
I wait for delivery each day until three,
So oh Lord, won't you buy me a color TV ?

Oh Lord, won't you buy me a night on the town ?
I'm counting on you, Lord, please don't let me down.
Prove that you love me and buy the next round,
Oh Lord, won't you buy me a night on the town ?

Everybody!
Oh Lord, won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz ?
My friends all drive Porsches, I must make amends,
Worked hard all my lifetime, no help from my friends,
So oh Lord, won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz ?

---

If Benny Hinn can wear a Rolex why didn't Saint Paul?
Well some would tell you Benny has more faith than Paul !
It's all about the BUCKS, not faith! It has nothing to do with getting the true message of New Spiritual Life in Jesus.
If it looks like the world - and it tastes like the world -and walks like the world - and talks like the world - then guess what. . .IT IS THE WORLD!!!!
Every promise made to the church of Christ Jesus in the new testament is a spirituasl promise. Every promise made to Abraham's seed was a materialistic (carnal)promise.
There fore I choose to hold to the promise of the Lord Jesus, my sight is set on eternal blessings not worldly "PROSPERITY BLESSINGS" offered to me by shallow TV evangelists on TBN. When you begin to understand what He sacrificed at calvary to bring that Eternal Life to all men you will seek to know Him. God pity those thousands of poor saps who sits in those gloriously carnal Crystal churches on Sunday and allow a man behind the pulpit to "tell" them how & what to believe. I would not trust my soul to a million dollar preacher with an Armani suit and a Rolex! Just try to find one of those "sheep" who can explain what happened in the garden. See if you can find one member of those Megachurches who can tell you why Jesus was the second Adam!

[Mr. Mojo]

ping