Cardinal: Pope in "a bad way"

Reuters/Fox News ^

[Dog]

German Cardinal Says Pope 'In a Very Bad Way' Tue September 30, 2003 08:23 AM ET BERLIN (Reuters) - Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, the German head of the Vatican body which oversees doctrinal matters, was quoted on Tuesday as saying Pope John Paul was in very poor health and the faithful should pray for him. "He is in a very bad way," Ratzinger told Germany's Bunte magazine in an interview. "We should pray for the pope."

Ratzinger, who heads the Vatican's Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, told the magazine that the 83-year-old pope had taken on too much, but he was unable to stop him.

The increasingly frail pope was particularly weak earlier this month on a trip to Slovakia and needed help reading his sermons. Last week, he skipped his general audience because of what the Vatican said was an intestinal problem.

Ratzinger's private secretary, Georg Gaenswein, said it was amazing how the pope, who suffers from Parkinson's Disease, kept going.

"He can't walk and stand anymore but he is a hero for the faithful. The fact that he doesn't give up despite his illness makes him even more credible," Gaenswein told Bunte.

He said the pope would not give up traveling. "When he is no longer allowed to travel, then dear God will come for him," Gaenswein said.

The leader of the world's one billion Roman Catholics, who marks his 25th anniversary next month, appointed 31 new cardinals on Sunday, possibly putting his last stamp on the group that will one day choose his successor.

[bondserv]

Why put the blame on the Church for your parents' failure to educate themselves? The information is out there. All you have to do is pick up a phone or log on to a website and order it.

To know God better one only needs to pick up their Bible. I pray that the priests will be lead by a new Pope to teach their sermons out of the Bible. It is good to be taught by a student of the word, who has dedicated their life to such persuits.

Isa 28:9-13
9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

[Jack Black]

That inevitably provokes comment, because of traditions that such a "double-eclipse" is a portent for some unusual event. Ithna'asheri Shi'ites, for example, believe that their Twelfth Imam will reappear after a Ramadan double-eclipse (although those two phenomena will supposedly take place in reverse order, with the solar one occurring in mid-month (5); that will require the moon to suddenly double its speed of movement after the onset of the Holy Month!)

In March/April 1894 (Ramadan 1311), Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (founder of the Ahmadiyya or Qadiani movement in Pakistan) interpreted a double-eclipse as a sign that he was a genuine modern-day prophet (6). ...

It will be interesting to see whether the two total eclipses scheduled to occur during Ramadan 1424 (AD November 2003) - are cited to support a claim similar to that made by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, or as proof of the significance of some extraordinary event.

Well some people will claim something, sure, but I am skeptical that it is already set up as the kick off point for the BIG ONE and appearance of the (moslem) savior.

The fun thing is we'll know for sure in a little while!

[Okies love Dubya 2]

I, as a Catholic, thank you for your decorum. This is a thread about the Holy Father's declining health (my grandfather is the same age and he converted to Catholicism in his early 70s). I vaguely remember him becoming Pope when I was 5 years old because my devoutly Catholic maternal grandmother was quite excited by it. John Paul II is a man who has stood against the secular world and never wavered in his respect for life, he prays for those who would destroy him, and despite illness and age, has continued to spread the word of God everywhere he goes. Whether or not you are a Catholic, non-Catholic, Jew, whatever, it cannot be denied that he is a man of principle and compassion.

I get disgusted when I see the news of someone's ill health turn into 'my religion is better than yours, nana-boo-boo' within a handful of posts. So you don't like the Catholic Church--fine. Leave the doctrine and so on for another thread. There are times I want to join the name calling with words that would get me banned, but I restrain myself. Not because I am afraid of being banned per se (even though I would not like it), but because I have to stand before my Lord someday and account for what I have said and done.

[dglang]

I thought that there was some prophecy given in ancient church history that indicated the number of 'pope' what would serve and that the next pope after this one is to be the 'imperfect pope', or the one that heralds Christ rerurn.

[Campion]

I pray that the priests will be lead by a new Pope to teach their sermons out of the Bible.

The current Pope already has. The General Instruction to the Roman Missal states clearly that the purpose of the homily at Mass is to expound on the readings, and their application to living a Christian life. A priest who doesn't do that is violating his instructions already. My pastor is quite faithful about it.

[biblewonk]

Then why do you just call her "Mary"?

As to your question: simple. Her Son was the Creator of the Universe, and also the One who commanded "Honor thy Father and thy Mother".

Think about what it means for God, who "does all things well," to honor his mother ... perfectly. Then go and do likewise.

Anti-Marian verses

******************* Mother of God *************

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

I had to add Gen 3 to build on mat 11:11. Both show that Jesus is not of Mary's seed since here we see that seed does NOT mean physical seed. If it did it would have to mean that for the serpent too.

Mat: 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

In other words He is not of Mary. She is not His mother genetically. He did not come from one of her eggs. Sure he came through her but he is not of her.

Mat 12:46-50 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Mark 3:31-35 There came then his brethren and his mother, and, standing without, sent unto him, calling him.
And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for the.
and he answered them, saying, who is my mother, or my brethren?
And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother and my sister, and mother.

Luke 11:27,28 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare these and the paps which thou has sucked.
but he said, Yea rather , blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

Gal 4:22-31:
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Notice that there really is a mother of the church and it isn't Mary! Once again Mary is not even mentioned.

Heb 6:20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisdec.

Heb 7: 1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
Heb 7:3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

Melchizedek is a type of Christ and is a priest of a higher order than Aaron. His priesthood is typified by being based on merit and not on blood and it is an eternal priesthood. This verse shows that in the sense of Jesus has no mother or father. Jesus has no mother or father physically like Melchizedek but in what sense if the Father His Father? We know that Jesus was not created so it is really positionally that the Father is His Father. This shows that the whole idea and title of "Mother of God" is anti-scriptural. b>

*************** Ever Virgin *************

Mat 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

Normal reading of this says they had sex after she bore the Lord.

*********** Queen of Heaven *********

Jer 7:18 The children gather wood, the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead dough, to make cakes for the queen of heaven; and they pour out drink offerings to other gods, that they may provoke Me to anger.

Jer 44:19 The women also said, "And when we burned incense to the queen of heaven and poured out drink offerings to her, did we make cakes for her, to worship her, and pour out drink offerings to her without our husbands' permission?"

Jer 44:25 Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, saying: "You and your wives have spoken with your mouths and fulfilled with your hands, saying, "We will surely keep our vows that we have made, to burn incense to the queen of heaven and pour out drink offerings to her." You will surely keep your vows and perform your vows!'

Mat 22: 25 Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother:
26 Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh.
27 And last of all the woman died also.
28 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

Mark 12:22

Luke 20:29

The fact that we are not given in marriage in heaven is repeated 3 times and usually with an exhortation about knowing the scriptures. The only reference to a queen of heaven is of a pagan idol. The rational for Mary being the Bride of the Holy Spirit is removed because we are not given in marriage in Heaven. The idea of her being Queen mother in heaven doesn’t work because if we don’t have wives in heaven, we don’t have kids in heaven. The Idea of Mary being the Mother of God and the wife of the Holy Spirit and the recipient of prayers makes her the 4th part of a man made quadiny.

****** Verses about Mary being assumed into heaven *****

None

******* Verses about Immaculate Conception of Mary *****

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

******* Verses about Mary distributing Grace ******

None

******* Verses that say to pray to dead people ******

None

[MineralMan]

"John Paul II is a man who has stood against the secular world and never wavered in his respect for life, he prays for those who would destroy him, and despite illness and age, has continued to spread the word of God everywhere he goes. Whether or not you are a Catholic, non-Catholic, Jew, whatever, it cannot be denied that he is a man of principle and compassion.
"

Yes. I disagree with some of the positions taken by the Roman Catholic Church, but have great respect for this man. The Pope is the only religious leader who has a worldwide congregation. There are Roman Catholics in every nation on this planet.

That puts the Pope in a sometimes difficult position, vis a vis secular governments. His role as a peacemaker is one that often puts him in a tough spot, but he is beholden to no country or government.

This Pope has the respect of all world leaders, simply because he has retained his independence. His patience helped end the Communist government of the Soviet Union, bringing a democratic system to countries, including his own Poland, which had not seen such a system before. That contribution, alone, should be enough to warrant the respect of everyone of good will.

Doctrine or no doctrine, Pope John Paul II is a true world leader. One need not agree with his religious beliefs to recognize that contribution. His passing will be a sad event, to be sure. I hope the next Pope has as much character and strength.

[MineralMan]

This thread is not about Mary and various interpretations of her position, religiously. It is about the serious illness of Pope John Paul II. Do you have something to say about the topic?

[biblewonk]

I assume I'm free to respond to those who are talking to me, if you aren't interested fine.

[Campion]

In other words He is not of Mary. She is not His mother genetically.

That's not Christianity then. It's some variety of the Docetist heresy. You've denied the human nature of Christ.

Funny, how YOPIOS always leads to a first-century heresy. The devil is not very original.

Elizabeth, in that same chapter in Luke, "filled with the Holy Spirit," calls blessed Mary "the mother of my Lord". Scripture demonstrates your error.

she is the mother of the real and true God -- Martin Luther, speaking of blessed Mary

[biblewonk]

You're the one attacking me. If I were more Christ like and less Paul like I'd react with more grace.

[MineralMan]

"I assume I'm free to respond to those who are talking to me, if you aren't interested fine."

As I am free to criticize your behavior in this thread. I will respond to whatever messages I wish, unless Jim Robinson or a moderator asks me not to.

[biblewonk]

Not true at all. I am not denying Christ's humanity. To say that it must be of her ovum is to say that Adam was not a man because there was no ovum there. In a different verse it is stated that God can raise up sons of Abraham from the stones. Same idea. I would never suggest such a thing if the verse didn't suggest it to me.

[biblewonk]

Good, just so we all have the same rules. Now where was I?

[SoothingDave]

That's not Christianity then. It's some variety of the Docetist heresy. You've denied the human nature of Christ.

Scratch a Maryphobe and uncover a deficient Christology.

SD

[bondserv]

The traditions of men must be held up to the light of scripture. Scripture is the standard that Paul so clearly designated them as. Paul's teachings were held up to the light of scripture and he pronounced those in Berea as more nobel.

There are so many passages in the Bible that tell us to personally study God's word, that this point is unassailable in it's persistance. The Holy Spirit oversaw both the writing, and the preservation of scripture. We can be confident that what we read in the 66 books that were cannonized, have been done so with the oversight of the Holy Spirit.

1 Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the LORD.
2 Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.
3 They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways.
4 Thou hast commanded us to keep thy precepts diligently.
5 O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!
6 Then shall I not be ashamed, when I have respect unto all thy commandments.
7 I will praise thee with uprightness of heart, when I shall have learned thy righteous judgments.
8 I will keep thy statutes: O forsake me not utterly.

9 Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.
10 With my whole heart have I sought thee: O let me not wander from thy commandments.
11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.
12 Blessed art thou, O LORD: teach me thy statutes.
13 With my lips have I declared all the judgments of thy mouth.
14 I have rejoiced in the way of thy testimonies, as much as in all riches.
15 I will meditate in thy precepts, and have respect unto thy ways.
16 I will delight myself in thy statutes: I will not forget thy word.

17 Deal bountifully with thy servant, that I may live, and keep thy word.
18 Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy law.
19 I am a stranger in the earth: hide not thy commandments from me.
20 My soul breaketh for the longing that it hath unto thy judgments at all times.
21 Thou hast rebuked the proud that are cursed, which do err from thy commandments.
22 Remove from me reproach and contempt; for I have kept thy testimonies.
23 Princes also did sit and speak against me: but thy servant did meditate in thy statutes.
24 Thy testimonies also are my delight and my counsellors.

25 My soul cleaveth unto the dust: quicken thou me according to thy word.
26 I have declared my ways, and thou heardest me: teach me thy statutes.
27 Make me to understand the way of thy precepts: so shall I talk of thy wondrous works.
28 My soul melteth for heaviness: strengthen thou me according unto thy word.
29 Remove from me the way of lying: and grant me thy law graciously.
30 I have chosen the way of truth: thy judgments have I laid before me.
31 I have stuck unto thy testimonies: O LORD, put me not to shame.
32 I will run the way of thy commandments, when thou shalt enlarge my heart.

33 Teach me, O LORD, the way of thy statutes; and I shall keep it unto the end.
34 Give me understanding, and I shall keep thy law; yea, I shall observe it with my whole heart.
35 Make me to go in the path of thy commandments; for therein do I delight.
36 Incline my heart unto thy testimonies, and not to covetousness.
37 Turn away mine eyes from beholding vanity; and quicken thou me in thy way.
38 Stablish thy word unto thy servant, who is devoted to thy fear.
39 Turn away my reproach which I fear: for thy judgments are good.
40 Behold, I have longed after thy precepts: quicken me in thy righteousness.

[Okies love Dubya 2]

Re post 187: Nicely put!

[SoothingDave]

Not true at all. I am not denying Christ's humanity.

If He is not genetically related to His mother, then whom is He related to?

SD

[presidio9]

I am not attacking you, I am making a straightforward observation. You have no class, and if your method of worship compels you to dance on the grave of a good man like John Paul II, it can not have much value in developing morality. You have openly lied on this very thread and been caught in the act. Is that the grace you were talking about?

[SoothingDave]

We can be confident that what we read in the 66 books that were cannonized, have been done so with the oversight of the Holy Spirit.

Where is this detailed in Scripture?

SD