Posted on 09/24/2003 3:06:09 PM PDT by Lorianne
A heated battle has been joined in the Vatican between moderates and conservatives over a directive, called for by the Pope, that would bar altar girls and stop millions of Roman Catholics around the world dancing, or even clapping, in their churches. _________________
Anger at Vatican plan to ban altar girls
John Hooper in Rome Wednesday September 24, 2003 The Guardian
A heated battle has been joined in the Vatican between moderates and conservatives over a directive, called for by the Pope, that would bar altar girls and stop millions of Roman Catholics around the world dancing, or even clapping, in their churches. The document would also clamp down on adult, lay pastoral assistants. It would forbid priests during sermons quoting from ethical texts other than the Gospels. And it would rank services jointly celebrated with Protestant ministers or Orthodox priests alongside black masses as one of the four "most serious" abuses
In a clear effort to block, or, at least dilute, the measure, a leaked text of the draft was this week published in Jesus, the monthly review of the Society of St Paul, an international Catholic organisation.
One Vatican insider was yesterday quoted by the Rome newspaper Il Messaggero as saying it contained "idiocies so mad as to incite fear".
The document was compiled by officials from two Vatican ministries, responsible for doctrine and liturgy, after the Pope called earlier this year for new guidelines on the way masses are held. Many clerics had complained that liberalisation and experiment in recent decades had left them not knowing what was allowed.
Catholics in western, and particularly northern, Europe are likely to be most taken aback by the Vatican officials' determination to block one of the few means of participation in church ritual for women.
The draft text states that priests should only allow girls to help them at mass if they have a special dispensation from their bishop and there is "just cause", which Italian commentators took to mean an absence of boys. According to the leaked draft, priests ought "never to feel themselves obliged to recruit girls".
In developing countries, where the Catholic church now has most of its members, the most controversial injunction will be the one banning "applause and dance within the place of worship, even outside the celebration of [mass]".
Dance is an integral part of worship in Africa and Asia and has figured in numerous services attended by the Pope. Clapping is also commonplace in Italy at weddings, baptisms and even during funerals.
The draft "instruction" was reportedly tabled in June and came in for stiff criticism at a meeting of the two departments. A final version is due to be published this year.
Actually, it may just be part of a purification in the Church.
< I hope so. It's about time...
People clap when the Pope processes in at Mass!? What are they thnking? It isn't a show! It's Mass!
Sheesh! That makes her a conservative Catholic!?
They apparently do not know the Catholic Faith. That's so sad, really.
Ahh. Then you're a "Church Catholic" that is, one that believes and lives according to the "Church." You should become a "Christ Catholic" that is one that bases her faith on the teachings of Christ. AND, since Christ was the One who began the Catholic Church...
Catholics are not Holy Rollers nor do they talk in tongues.
thanks, sinkspur. I hope you are right.
I never compared the authority of the management of the ... to the Holy See. I only pointed out that disobedience, at times, leads to change for the good. Stop trying to make bizarre leaps.
Essentially you're arguing that two thousand years of the Church's witness is "terrible" because it upsets the sensibilities of Gloria Steinem.
Whaaa?
When, I agree, is immaterial. What is important is how. And that how is through specifically orchestrated acts of disobedience by radical feminist apostates.
Women's suffrage came about through the efforts and disobedience of radical feminists. Does that mean we should go back in time and take away the right to vote from women? You argument is akin to saying the VW bug is bad because it was one of Hitler's brainchilds. In the case of the beetle, I'd rather have someone make the point that it's a bad car because it's unsafe in an accident rather than saying that the person who conceived it was evil. In the same vein, I would rather you explain why altar girls are a bad idea in 2003 rather than point out that the originators of the concept were 'radical feminist apostates'.
I already have. It is an ongoing manifestation of disobedience and it ruins the natural mechanism of fostering vocations.
It is not an ongoing manifestation of disobedience. It is allowed at the discretion of the bishop under certain circumstances. You have not shown any connection or proof of how it ruins the fostering of vocations.
the motive of an act is irrelevant and all that matters is its utility in a current situation, we are in the realm of situational ethics.
I did not say the motive is irrelevant, and don't make the illogical leap that anyone who supports girl altar servers today has the bad motives of the folks who originally came up with the idea (if indeed they truly had the motives you ascribe to them). I claim that people who support girl altar servers today are not necessaritly radical feminist apostates. My daughter will be an altar server. I have no interest in the priesthood being open to women. In fact, there is no one who would describe me as a feminist either in regards to church doctrine or societal norms in general.
What is actually incoherent is claiming to be a Catholic and then simultaneously claiming that obedience is irrelevant, tradition is unimportant and that only what makes people happy from moment to moment counts.
I never made any of these claims. What I said, if you took the time to read my many posts on the subject today, is that traditions and customs should adapt but only after careful and deliberate consideration...this clearly flies in the face of making people happy from moment to moment.
No, they are working very hard to get us, as a church, back to where we should be. I for one, have never liked the idea of altar girls. And, yes, I am a woman. There are many, many other opportunities in our church for women to serve.
Apparently you are unfamiliar with the execrable "charismatic Catholic" movement.
You are very fortunate if this is the case.
because the radical feminazi lesbians who have infiltrated many of the diocesan bureaucracies don't want new priests
I would have been more clear. And you would have seen no contradiction, where there is in fact none. The much ballyhooed "priest shortage" is not evenly distributed, nor is it random. It is nonexistant in the most orthodox and Traditional dioceses, and most severe in the most heterodox and trend-following dioceses. Some months ago, the New Oxford Review published an article quantifying this phenomenon. You might find it on their website.
Bustard on my behind who obviously thought I shouldn't voice an opinion and hit the cry button.
I did not, nor do I ever, hit "abuse". As always, I prefer that putrid and irrelevant remarks be left up as mute testimony against the people who make them. I don't run this site, though, so my preference doesn't set policy.
You haven't seen the Charismatics, have you? They're as much Rollers as the ones I saw in church back when I was Southern Baptist.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.