Anger at Vatican plan to ban altar girls

Gaurdian (UK) ^ | 24 September 2003 | John Hooper

[Lorianne]

A heated battle has been joined in the Vatican between moderates and conservatives over a directive, called for by the Pope, that would bar altar girls and stop millions of Roman Catholics around the world dancing, or even clapping, in their churches. _________________

Anger at Vatican plan to ban altar girls

John Hooper in Rome Wednesday September 24, 2003 The Guardian

A heated battle has been joined in the Vatican between moderates and conservatives over a directive, called for by the Pope, that would bar altar girls and stop millions of Roman Catholics around the world dancing, or even clapping, in their churches. The document would also clamp down on adult, lay pastoral assistants. It would forbid priests during sermons quoting from ethical texts other than the Gospels. And it would rank services jointly celebrated with Protestant ministers or Orthodox priests alongside black masses as one of the four "most serious" abuses

In a clear effort to block, or, at least dilute, the measure, a leaked text of the draft was this week published in Jesus, the monthly review of the Society of St Paul, an international Catholic organisation.

One Vatican insider was yesterday quoted by the Rome newspaper Il Messaggero as saying it contained "idiocies so mad as to incite fear".

The document was compiled by officials from two Vatican ministries, responsible for doctrine and liturgy, after the Pope called earlier this year for new guidelines on the way masses are held. Many clerics had complained that liberalisation and experiment in recent decades had left them not knowing what was allowed.

Catholics in western, and particularly northern, Europe are likely to be most taken aback by the Vatican officials' determination to block one of the few means of participation in church ritual for women.

The draft text states that priests should only allow girls to help them at mass if they have a special dispensation from their bishop and there is "just cause", which Italian commentators took to mean an absence of boys. According to the leaked draft, priests ought "never to feel themselves obliged to recruit girls".

In developing countries, where the Catholic church now has most of its members, the most controversial injunction will be the one banning "applause and dance within the place of worship, even outside the celebration of [mass]".

Dance is an integral part of worship in Africa and Asia and has figured in numerous services attended by the Pope. Clapping is also commonplace in Italy at weddings, baptisms and even during funerals.

The draft "instruction" was reportedly tabled in June and came in for stiff criticism at a meeting of the two departments. A final version is due to be published this year.

[SouthernFreebird]

You are not implying that the children tempted the priests.

And I'd really like to know why my comments are being removed!!!!!!

Priest have been molesting boys.......it's in the news....they are 'gay' so what is it that I am saying that is so offensive to be pulled???

[Lorianne]

Well that's a good point. But being a priest is usually a well regarded vocation among Catholics. So by extension, the fact that only men can be priests would tend to make men feel validated, at least in a heirarchal sense, whether or not they wanted to be priests themselves.

But this still leaves the question ... why are more women active in the Catholic church than men?

[A. Pole]

But this still leaves the question ... why are more women active in the Catholic church than men?

Maybe because men and women are religious in a different way?

[Lorianne]

When rules appear to be arbitrary, people are turned off. That's all I'm saying. It doesn't bother me if the Church wants to become more conservative on the issue of women or not. I have no stake in it. I'm merely interested in their logic, and as a point of curiosity, the resulting outcome.

[Pan_Yans Wife]

But, I'm a Baptist, and I believe that only men should participate in the church service. I am not bashing Catholics, and I am not out to prove a political point.

My point of view is that all of the churches have their own rules, which they should follow faithfully. If they don't they will not have any influence in our lives. And without God's protection, we will cease to exist.

I do not know why you address this comment to me...

but on the other hand stop insulting women by telling them that people can participate in seven sacraments...only men can.

[Cousin Eddie]

Talk about painfully tortured logic. Where are you coming from?

Rosa Park's disobedience (refusing to give up her seat when ordered) forced this country to take a harsh look at some of its terrible traditions and customs. Frankly I don't care how the practice of altar girls came about...whether it started 15 years ago or 150 years ago, it is totally irrelevant to whether girls should serve on the altar today. Explain to me why it's bad to have altar girls today. I'll be happy to entertain that type of argument.

The presence of altar girls at my church this past has nothing to do with morality. It is not an immoral act and has nothing to do with situational ethics. You statement is incoherent.

There are many, many altar boys in my parish. The presence of altar girls has actually increased the number of boys. A few years ago we had about 5 altar boys...now we have about 40 altar servers.

[Lorianne]

Isn't there something about Christianity itself that can be alienating to men, especially young men? I've read that argument, that Christianity is in inherenlty a "feminine" religion (I assume because of Jesus' peaceful and passive demeanor as written in the Gospels). I'm not sure I buy that argument given the many wars which have been fought under the auspices of Christianity, but it's something to think about.

[sinkspur]

I'd then remind folks that in matters of discipline, not just matters of faith and morals, we are bound by the instructions of our sacred pastors, and that's that.

Yeah. That's about all I could come up with. Do it 'cause I say so.

Also, what "abuses" have there been to communion in the hand? Most people who receive in the hand are just as "reverent" as those who stick out their tongues. Plus, communion on the tongue is much less sanitary for all involved.

[ellery]

Got it -- thanks for the info!

[sinkspur]

But this still leaves the question ... why are more women active in the Catholic church than men?

Women are more active in ALL churches, and synagogues, than men.

It's in the nature of women, I guess.

[nickcarraway]

Yes, being a priest is a well regarded vocation.(or should be) But, at least in Catholic teaching, everyone can have an equally valid vocation. Priests are necessary, but if you read the Catechism, the married life is a wonderful vocation as well. And, whatever society may say, being single is does not make one inferior. Does the fact that a man cannot have children, ``alienate'' him from family life?

[Lorianne]

I reach that conclusion by knowing many women who were raised Catholic who are not raising their children Catholic. Ask your parish priest about the phenomenon, I'm sure it's not an unfamiliar one to him.

[nickcarraway]

I am not saying that Christianity is a ``feminine'' religion- just that certain aspects may prove impediments to young men pursuing it. Their is a fully masculine side to Christianity, but it may require more work for the young man.

[sitetest]

Dear sinkspur,

LOL. Remember, I'm on YOUR side of the question. I prefer communion in the hand. But you asked, and I did what I could. ;-)

But I'd switch in a heartbeat if the pope said that communion in the hand was no longer permissible. Wouldn't think twice. Need no rationale.

As to abuses, frankly, when I see folks receive in the hand, a few seem a little... cavalier with the Host. Note, I'm not commenting on their interior state. But the way some folks handle the Host, I get worried about their dropping the Blessed Sacrament. Especially the folks who receive in their palm, and then with the fingers of the same hand do this little Houdini thing to extract the Host from their palm.


sitetest

[Cousin Eddie]

Sorry, not aimed at you...more at the Church. I'm comfortable with the men only priest rule, but the church ought to be more straightforward and say there are seven sacrements for men and six for women and explain why that's the case.

The reason the entire post was directed at you was just by chance. A number of posters talked about not changing traditions or rules and yours was just the one I happened to click on. My main point is that over the centuries and millenia, an organization has to evolve its traditions and customers (after much careful deliberation) but not its core beliefs.

[Poohbah]

Does the fact that a man cannot have children, ``alienate'' him from family life?

To a certain extent...yes.

I have gotten counsel as to what I should do in a complex situation from my spiritual advisor. Said counsel was eminently sound from a purely theological perspective...

...but I could not act on it due to the duties of my station in life as husband and father.

[hilaryrhymeswithrich]

Every Catholic girl I was raised with (fairly small close knit community) that has chidlren are raising them in a more devout conservative manner than we were raised. In addition, I have several friends who married Catholic men, though they are not Catholic themselves, who are raising their children Catholic....we must hang around in very different crowds.

[Feldkurat_Katz]

The presence of altar girls has actually increased the number of boys.

Too bad I am not young anymore!

Seriously, I have this lingering suspicion that introducing altar girls was just a small part of a bigger postmodernist project, namely, creating a society where norms are constantly changing, which really means the absence of norms. A society where everything is relative, nothig is evil, except racism, sexism and homophobia.

A constantly changing liturgy is a part of this project.

[nickcarraway]

Well, I hope you can get advice for something to do which is compatible to being a husband and father. Any advice that would hurt that role is not worthy advice.

[dmz]

I'm sure that this will be taken as a smart a$$ question, but it is only partially so.

What Biblical citation do we have for the banning of clapping and dancing during the worship of God? Please be specific.

And if there is one that is specific, I'll be the first to proclaim my ignorance (and if you want, I'll do it on this forum)