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Should you be scared of the Patriot Act?
Slate ^ | September 8, 2003 | Dahlia Lithwick and Julia Turner

Posted on 09/09/2003 6:36:44 PM PDT by Sandy

A Guide to the Patriot Act, Part 1

What's hot for fall of 2003?

Well, the USA Patriot Act, for one thing. Although it passed in Congress almost without dissent in the aftermath of Sept. 11, it's suddenly being revisited, and this time around some of the folks holding opinions have actually read the thing. Among its detractors are 152 communities, including several major cities and three states, that have now passed resolutions denouncing the Patriot Act as an assault on civil liberties. More than one member of Congress has introduced legislation taking the teeth out of its most invasive provisions. And in a huge shock to the Justice Department, in July the so-called "Otter Amendment--which de-funded the act's "sneak-and-peek" provision--passed in the House by a vote of 309-118. Introduced by a conservative Republican congressman from Idaho, C.L. "Butch" Otter, the amendment revealed the extent to which the Patriot Act engenders jitters across the political spectrum. Then there are the lawsuits, including one filed recently by the ACLU, urging the court to invalidate provisions of the act that threaten privacy or due process. All these reforms are wending their way through the system and the national consciousness as Americans start to take a sober second look at what the act really unleashed.

On the other hand, there's the John Ashcroft "Patriot Rocks" concert tour, launched last month, which has him visiting 18 cities and talking up the act to local law enforcement officials. The DOJ also unloosed a new Web site last month, designed to shore up support for the act. Ashcroft contends that had the Patriot Act been in place earlier, 9/11 wouldn't have happened and that absent a Patriot Act, the country may have seen more 9/11s over the past two years--a double-double negative that's unprovable, but enough to scare you witless. There have also been a raft of op-eds and articles--some evidently written by Ashcroft's U.S. attorneys at knifepoint--simultaneously making the point that the act has staved off unspeakable acts of terror while maintaining that it made only tiny infinitesimal changes to the existing laws.

Part of the impetus for all the new activity is that some of the really great bits of the act are set to sunset in 2005, and some Republican senators are planning to introduce legislation to repeal the sunset provisions altogether. Copies of "Patriot II--the act that was intended to follow Patriot and grant the government even broader powers--were leaked to the press last winter, and while the ensuing ruckus ensured that Patriot II is dead, much of it will evidently rise again this fall in the guise of the VICTORY Act, Orrin Hatch's attempt to deploy Patriot powers in the war on drugs. One of the reasons that Patriot is fighting for its life, then, is so that its creepy progeny may someday live as well.

How bad is Patriot, really? Hard to tell. The ACLU, in a new fact sheet challenging the DOJ Web site, wants you to believe that the act threatens our most basic civil liberties. Ashcroft and his roadies call the changes in law "modest and incremental." Since almost nobody has read the legislation, much of what we think we know about it comes third-hand and spun. Both advocates and opponents are guilty of fear-mongering and distortion in some instances.

The truth of the matter seems to be that while some portions of the Patriot Act are truly radical, others are benign. Parts of the act formalize and regulate government conduct that was unregulated--and potentially even more terrifying--before. Other parts clearly expand government powers and allow it to spy on ordinary citizens in new ways. But what is most frightening about the act is exacerbated by the lack of government candor in describing its implementation. FOIA requests have been half-answered, queries from the judiciary committee are blown off or classified. In the absence of any knowledge about how the act has been used, one isn't wrong to fear it in the abstract--to worry about its potential, since that is all we can know.

Ashcroft and his supporters on the stump cite a July 31 Fox News/Opinion Dynamics Poll showing that 91 percent of registered voters say the act had not affected their civil liberties. One follow-up question for them: How could they know?

If you haven't read all 300-plus pages of the legislation by now, you should. If you can't, in the following four-part series, Slate has attempted to summarize and synthesize the most controversial portions of the act so you can decide for yourself whether you want Patriot, and the Patriots that may follow, to be a part of your world. Part 1 tackles Section 215, the law dealing with private records. Part 2 will address changes to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, or FISA, and "sneak and peek" warrants. Part 3 will discuss new electronic surveillance, and Part 4 will discuss miscellaneous provisions, including alien detentions.

Section 215, aka "Attack of the Angry Librarians"

Section 215 is one of the surprising lightning rods of the Patriot Act, engendering more protest, lawsuits, and congressional amendments than any other. In part this is because this section authorizes the government to march into a library and demand a list of everyone who's ever checked out a copy of My Secret Garden but also because those librarians are tough.

What it does: Section 215 modifies the rules on records searches. Post-Patriot Act, third-party holders of your financial, library, travel, video rental, phone, medical, church, synagogue, and mosque records can be searched without your knowledge or consent, providing the government says it's trying to protect against terrorism.

The law before and how it changed: Previously the government needed at least a warrant and probable cause to access private records. The Fourth Amendment, Title III of the Omnibus Crime Control and Safe Streets Act of 1968, and case law provided that if the state wished to search you, it needed to show probable cause that a crime had been committed and to obtain a warrant from a neutral judge. Under FISA--the 1978 act authorizing warrantless surveillance so long as the primary purpose was to obtain foreign intelligence information--that was somewhat eroded, but there remained judicial oversight. And under FISA, records could be sought only "for purposes of conducting foreign intelligence" and the target "linked to foreign espionage" and an "agent of a foreign power." Now the FBI needs only to certify to a FISA judge--(no need for evidence or probable cause) that the search protects against terrorism. The judge has no authority to reject this application. DOJ calls this "seeking a court order," but it's much closer to a rubber stamp. Also, now the target of a search needn't be a terror suspect herself, so long as the government's purpose is "an authorized investigation ... to protect against international terrorism."

Downplaying the extent of these changes, the DOJ argued to Congress that 215 is no big deal, since grand juries could always subpoena private records in the past. The difference they don't acknowledge is that investigators may now do so secretly, and these orders cannot be contested in court. While the new DOJ Web site asserts that searches under 215 are limited to "business records," the act on its face allows scrutiny of "any tangible thing" including books, records, papers, documents, and anything else. The site also says U.S. citizens may not be subject to search, but the act does not differentiate. How can it, when a library or doctor's office is simply asked to produce a list of names? And here is where the Justice Department hedges: It claims that a citizen cannot be searched "solely on the basis of activities protected by the First Amendment to the Constitution." That means you can't have your records searched solely because you wrote an article criticizing the Patriot Act. But if you are originally from India and write that article, well, that's not "solely" anymore is it? To be sure, the ACLU is doing a bit of fearmongering when it says the DOJ can rifle through your records if they don't like what you're reading. If you're a U.S. citizen and not otherwise suspicious, you're probably safe, so long as all you do is read.

When the judiciary committee, inquiring into the civil liberties implications of Patriot, asked about 215, the DOJ said in July 2002: "Such an order could conceivably be served on a public library, bookstore, or newspaper, although it is unlikely that such entities maintain those types of records. If the FBI were authorized to obtain the information the more appropriate tool for requesting electronic communication transactional records would be a National Security Letter." But as we will explain in Part 4, the government's NSL authority was also beefed up by the Patriot Act. In other words, the government may simply have a more effective means of conducting warrantless searches than the one everyone's riled up about.

How it's been implemented: The DOJ is playing this one particularly close to the vest. The act itself mandates semiannual reporting by the attorney general to Congress, but the only thing he must report is the number of applications sought and granted. Not very helpful unless that number is zero ...

When asked by the House Committee on the Judiciary to detail whether and how many times Section 215 has been used "to obtain records from a public library, bookstore, or newspaper," the DOJ said it would send classified answers to the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence. The judiciary committee had what it called "reasonable limited access" to those responses, and it reported in October 2002 that its review had "not given any rise to concern that the authority is being misused or abused."

Wanting to learn more, the ACLU and some other civil rights groups filed a FOIA request, arguing that the DOJ was classifying its answers unnecessarily. But this May, a federal judge in U.S. district court in Washington ruled that the DOJ had the right to keep the specifics hush-hush under FOIA's national security exemption. The next day, at a judiciary committee hearing, Assistant Attorney General Viet Dinh did throw a bone to librarians, noting that in "an informal survey of the field offices," Justice learned "that libraries have been contacted approximately 50 times, based on articulable suspicion or voluntary calls from librarians regarding suspicious activity." He did not give specifics on searches of any other establishments.

Independent attempts to chronicle the frequency of records searches have proved inconclusive. Within months after Sept. 11, federal or local officials visited nearly 10 percent of the nation's public libraries "seeking Sept. 11-related information about patron reading habits," according to a University of Illinois survey. But since librarians are gagged under the act, it's not clear that these reports are accurate. In any event, the same study suggests that about 13.8 percent of the nation's libraries received similar requests in the year before Sept. 11, so it's impossible to say that the problem was exacerbated by the new law.

Would you know if Section 215 had been used on you? Nope. The person made to turn over the records is gagged and cannot disclose the search to anyone.

Sunsets in 2005: Yes.

Prognosis: The first lawsuit against the Patriot Act was filed by the ACLU on July 30 this year, targeting Section 215. The suit has six mostly Arab and Muslim American groups as plaintiffs. Their claim is that 215 violates the Constitution and "vastly expands the power of the [FBI] to obtain records and other 'tangible things' of people not suspected of criminal activity."

In Congress, Rep. Bernard Sanders has proposed the Freedom to Read Protection Act to repeal provisions that subvert library patrons' privacy, and in July 2003 Sens. Lisa Murkowski and Ron Wyden introduced the Protecting the Rights of Individuals Act, requiring FBI agents to convince a judge of the merits of their suspicions before obtaining an individual's medical or Internet records. Similarly, Sen. Russ Feingold's Library, Bookseller and Personal Records Privacy Act would allow FBI access to business records pertaining to suspected terrorists or spies only. Feingold's bill would restore the pre-Patriot requirement that the FBI make a factual, individualized showing that the records sought pertain to a specific suspected terrorist.

Enough to get you through a cocktail party: 215 does extend FBI power to conduct essentially warrantless records searches, especially on people who are not themselves terror suspects, with little or no judicial oversight. The government sees this as an incremental change in the law, but the lack of meaningful judicial oversight and expanded scope of possible suspects is pretty dramatic.

A Guide to the Patriot Act, Part 2

Section 218 aka "FISA: It's everywhere you don't want to be"

Section 218 amends the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, a "bargain" struck in 1978 wherein the usual requirements for a police search--probable cause to believe a criminal act had occurred and a warrant--would be unnecessary in a teeny, tiny number of cases. That teeny, tiny number of cases just expanded dramatically.

What it does: Secret searches can now be authorized by a secret court without public knowledge or Department of Justice accountability, so long as the government can allege there is any foreign intelligence basis for the search.

The law before and how it changed: In 1978 the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act created an exception to the Fourth Amendment's "probable cause requirement" for physical searches, wiretaps, and subpoenas of business records. FISA created a secret court that granted search warrants so long as a pleading before a closed court asserted that the "primary purpose" of the search or wire tap was to gather foreign intelligence. The warrant needn't be based on a suspicion of criminal behavior. But the target had to be "linked to foreign espionage." In theory, American citizens were safe unless they were suspected "agents of a foreign power." A good indicator of the objectivity of the FISA court: It rejected only five of the 14,000 warrant applications it received before 2001, although it recently became clear that many of those warrants were based on false allegations. The FISA court is not supposed to second-guess the government. These are not adversarial proceedings. Nor does the FISA court maintain ongoing oversight over the surveillance. Patriot amends FISA to allow searches when "a significant purpose" is intelligence-gathering. Not "primary," but significant. Now you can be subject to secret searches authorized by a secret court so long as there is any foreign intelligence component (and increasingly, drug-related offenses are deemed to have a terrorist component). Moreover, the party to be searched need not be connected to foreign espionage anymore. It's enough that the government may merely learn something about a terror investigation. Section 207 of the act lengthens the durations of FISA warrants to as long as 120 days in some cases. Finally, under the pre-Patriot FISA and Title III, fruits of FISA search warrants could be used only for information-gathering, not for prosecution. But now intelligence information obtained using FISA's lower standards for probable cause can be passed along for prosecution purposes.

How it's been implemented: Since Patriot expanded the small number of cases in which a FISA court might authorize a search warrant, the number of warrants issued has, unsurprisingly, risen slightly. The FISA court approved 1,228 applications for warrants in 2002, up from 934 in 2001 and 1,012 in 2000. (The number of warrants issued was consistently below 1,000 throughout the '90s.) When asked by the House Judiciary Committee in 2002 how many of these warrants met the "significant purpose" standard but would have failed to meet the "primary purpose" standard, the DOJ hedged, saying they'd kept no statistics on the distinction.

But the DOJ consistently argues that the principal impact of Section 218 lies not in the expanded applicability of the warrants, but in the way it has facilitated intelligence sharing. As the DOJ paints it, the pre-Patriot era was an icy one; criminal prosecutors and intelligence experts toiled away, rarely communicating with one another. There were protocols for sharing some information, but for the most part, "the metaphorical 'wall' between the intelligence community and federal law enforcement often precluded effective and indeed vital information sharing, perversely creating higher barriers in the most serious cases," as the DOJ told the House Judiciary Committee in May. Making no mention of the possible benefits of this divide--such as prohibiting prosecutors from building their case on warrantless searches--the DOJ crowed in the May report that Sections 218 and 504(a) brought this "artificial dichotomy" to an end, citing the February indictment of Sami Al-Arian--the University of South Florida professor alleged to be a leader of a Palestinian Islamic Jihad cell--as a prime example of what can be achieved when intelligence types and law enforcement officials log a few hours on a ropes course and really start working together. The allegations in the Al-Arian indictment were based on information collected pursuant to FISA but before the passage of Patriot. In those days, FISA protocols allowed for some information sharing. But criminal prosecutors and investigators were denied "full access to information obtained through FISA," according to the DOJ, and criminal and intelligence personnel were prevented "from coordinating their parallel investigations." Post-Patriot, once the wall was down, the Tampa prosecutors accessed information "which existed in the FBI's intelligence--but not criminal--files" and used it "to document the decade-long conspiracy that is alleged."

Eager to find similar prosecutorial applications for information gleaned in terrorism and intelligence investigations, Attorney General John Ashcroft asked U.S. Attorneys after Sept. 11 to review almost 4,500 intelligence files, and the DOJ reported to the House Judiciary Committee in May that "evidence or information from this review has been incorporated in numerous cases." Again, this allows prosecutors free range over materials obtained without a traditional warrant.

Would you know if Section 218 had been used on you? Only if you were later prosecuted using information gathered pursuant to a FISA warrant. Then you'd have the opportunity to try to suppress that evidence in a regular court proceeding.

Sunsets in 2005: Yes.

Prognosis: Last year, in a dramatic refusal to grant a DOJ request, the FISA court declined to implement the Patriot provision allowing for information sharing between prosecutors and investigators. But in November 2002, the secret FISA appeals court, which had never before been convened, found that the lower FISA court had erred in refusing to lower the wall between prosecutors and investigators. Only the government had been represented at oral argument, and only the government has the right of appeal under the law.

Enough to get you through a cocktail party: FISA was a constitutional "bargain" struck by a Congress concerned that the Executive branch needed some special leeway for foreign intelligence surveillance without undermining American criminal procedures as laid out in the Constitution. Broadening FISA so that it may be used against Americans, with searches initiated by the prosecutorial arm of the government, against ordinary criminals, subverts that bargain.

Section 213 aka "Sneak and Peek-a-boo"

Section 213 is another extremely controversial part of the Patriot Act, engendering protest from across the political spectrum. By allowing the state to rummage first and let you know later (sometimes much later), the act upends the traditional requirement that the state advise you in advance that you are being searched.

What it does: "Sneak and Peek" warrants extend sneak-and-peek authority from FISA searches to any criminal search. This allows for secret searches of your home and property without prior notice.

The law before and how it changed: Police used to have to "knock and announce" their intention of searching before executing any warrant. This gave the person being searched advance notice and a clear picture of what authorities were looking for. In 1978 FISA changed the law, allowing the FISA court to authorize sneak-and-peek warrants but only in cases where "foreign powers or their agents" were suspected of terrorism. The Patriot Act expands the use of these warrants if "immediate notification of the execution of the warrant may have an adverse result." Under Patriot, such warrants are no longer limited to terrorism investigations but now extend to include any criminal investigation at all. Moreover, the act requires only that notice be given of the search or wiretap "within a reasonable period of its execution," which may be extended by the court for "good cause shown."

Supporters of the act argue that courts have always allowed officers to delay notification of a warrant if knowledge of the warrant would risk witness intimidation, the destruction of evidence, the impossibility of prosecution, or flight of the suspect. And the Supreme Court has held that these warrants are constitutional. Ashcroft also contends that the act limits the use of sneak-and-peek warrants to specific circumstances, so that its use might actually decline. But it's undeniable that the government can almost always argue that later notification would be helpful. And because the standard under 213 is low, sneak-and-peeks will be authorized anytime notification jeopardizes an investigation. Since few criminal suspects really help the state during searches, this looks to be an exception that might swallow the rule. And ultimately, the best check against the police ransacking your property indiscriminately (rather than sticking to the particulars of their warrant) continues to be your glowering presence nearby.

How it's been implemented: The Department of Justice reported to the House Judiciary committee in May that it had "requested a judicial order delaying notice of the execution of a warrant under section 213 forty-seven times, and the courts have granted every request." Courts can also permit seizure of tangible property if there's "reasonable necessity" for doing so; they've granted seizure requests on 14 occasions and rejected only one request, ruling that "photos of the relevant items would be sufficient."

The delays in notification have been of varying durations, some as short as one day, some as long as 90. The DOJ can request extensions of these periods repeatedly and indefinitely, and it has so far done so 248 times. Some courts have also "permitted delays of unspecified duration lasting until the indictment was unsealed," according to the DOJ's report.

Would you know if Section 213 had been used on you? Eventually--they do still have to tell you that you've been searched, although the law provides that the period of time may be extended indefinitely for good cause.

Sunsets in 2005: No.

Prognosis: In July 2003 the "Otter Amendment," which would de-fund federal power to conduct sneak-and-peeks, passed the House by a vote of 309-118 The issue has yet to be taken up by the Senate, but the administration threatens to veto it should it pass.

In July 2003, Sens. Lisa Murkowski and Ron Wyden introduced a bill, Protecting the Rights of Individuals Act, that would provide, among other things, that sneak-and-peek authority only be available in the limited number of cases enumerated above (risk of flight, destruction of evidence, etc.). The act would also build in a reporting requirement for the attorney general.

Enough to get you through a cocktail party: Sneak-and-peek warrants are neither radical nor per se unconstitutional. However, what was a very limited exception for their use has now grown rather substantially. It's hard to think of a situation in which a criminal investigation wouldn't be better served by announcing the search or wiretap after the fact. And if that's the new rule, "knock and announce" is dead.

Dahlia Lithwick is a Slate senior editor.
Julia Turner is a Slate assistant editor.



TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Extended News; Front Page News; Government; News/Current Events; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: patriotact
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To: Sandy
I am not for terrorist being able to hide behind our constitutional protections in order to attack. Having said that the congress, the senate, and the American people were lied to. WHY THE LIE?

Neither the congress or senate were presented with a full copy of the bill before being pressured to vote for it, why?

Why has the congress and senate become notorious for passing bills and treaties that they claim not to have taken the time to even read? And why are Americans not up in arms about this fact?

The worse parts of the Patriot Act do not sunshine in four years as advertised, the Patriot Act does not exclude American citizens. It's already being used in non terrorist cases. Given that we will be led blindly into the FTAA treaty, and international laws will over ride our Constitution, any attack on our civil liberties should be taken seriously.

All the Justice Dept and the authors of the Patriot Act had to do was exclude American citizens. There was a reason they didn't, and they acted in bad faith, so the bill should be scrapped and another passed in it's place.

61 posted on 09/09/2003 9:05:52 PM PDT by MissAmericanPie
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To: Sandy
These propagandists are slick. That article if full of LIES. The Patriot Act does NOT read like the article suggests. It is clearly limited to, and focused upon, either foreign powers (and their agents) or U.S. citizens who are effectively and by definition treasonous. For example; A judge very much CAN deny a request to access public records as the act clearly states:
Upon an application made pursuant to this section, the judge shall enter an ex parte order as requested, or as modified, approving the release of records if the judge finds that the application meets the requirements of this section.
The examples go on, but that article is dung. The only part that is accurate is the reference to how few people have actually read the act. I think the strong liberal opposition to the Act has more to do with their immigration friendly views more than anything else. It is certainly true that under the Patriot Act NON U.S. citizens will NOT be afforded all rights under the Constitution. But who cares?
62 posted on 09/09/2003 10:28:07 PM PDT by ableChair
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Comment #63 Removed by Moderator

To: FoxFang
I was condensing the wording for clarity. The Act clearly specifies what U.S. citizens can be investigated in 'extra-constitutional' ways; to wit, only citizens operating in concert with foreign powers or their agents to undermine the U.S. government are subject to this Act. I could care less about the Constitutional rights of people like that. They might as well go to Afghanistan, pick up an AK and join the fight against the infidels. Yes, I concede some danger in a law like that, especially if the definition of "terrorism" is expanded (Patriot 2 - to which I'm opposed). There, "terrorism" gets expanded yet more to mean any act of aggression, clearly a ludicrous definition. I think that's a valid point.
64 posted on 09/09/2003 10:53:47 PM PDT by ableChair
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To: ableChair
A judge very much CAN deny a request to access public records as the act clearly states: "Upon an application made pursuant to this section, the judge shall enter an ex parte order as requested, or as modified, approving the release of records if the judge finds that the application meets the requirements of this section."

Oh good grief. What you're overlooking is the fact that there aren't any requirements.

65 posted on 09/09/2003 11:22:12 PM PDT by Sandy
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To: findingtruth
I know that and I suppose this was done by the same RINO Republicans such as those supporting Ah-Nold. I refer to them as the KNEE PAD type. Democrats are Evil!
66 posted on 09/10/2003 6:15:00 AM PDT by chachacha
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To: Sandy
Ashcroft ... call the changes in law "modest and incremental."

Seems I've heard this phrase before.
-- Didn't much care for it then, either.

67 posted on 09/10/2003 7:52:01 AM PDT by dread78645
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To: muawiyah
I decided to look up Patriot Act 2 that was aborted in the draft stage. It's all legal mumble jumble but I sat down for fortyfive minutes and read the first 12 pages.

They write about foreign powers = international terrorism who want to bring harm to our shores. If you are a US citizen and if you decide to do something criminal - you are protected under the constitution. If your a foriegner and not a US citizen, your not protected under the constitution. So US citizens, if your worried about your e-mail and your right to privacy call the ACLU. Your a US citizen.

Terrorist organizations have used our legal system to their advantage by using our existing legal loop holes.
Legal loop holes are useful if your highly moblie with advance communications and knowing US laws. Our law enforcment agencies are technologically disadvantaged; they are trying to tackle international terrorism with telegraph wires, rotary phones and first generation computers!


Section 126 - Equal Access to Consumer Credit Report.

Did you know this?
Private business entities have a easier time getting into our credit rating because they have loophole; legitimate business needs. Federal agencies have a harder time getting into a foreign power=terrorist credit reports, they have to get a court order subponas for each place they intend to go: credit report agencies, suspect's creditors and the suspect's bank account. They wanted to create one subpona to do all three just like those private business entities who don't need one.

Section 128 - Federal government law enforcement agencies were able to get subponas for U.S. mail fraud but presently they are not allow to to get subponas for international terrorist activities happening our shores. I quess we can catch the terrorist when they do another 9/11.

Section 127 - Autopsy Authority. If a US citizen was murdered by a terrorist overseas, US authorities are not allowed to touch or pick up the body. They can't perform an an autopsy to see how the US citizen died and figure out who did it. Blast fragments could help to identify terrorist groups. Time and delays are on the terrorist side.

A federal judge can only issue out a search warrant for his district only. International terrorist used this loophole to freely move around our country to plot more terrorism. PA2 would allow a federal judge to issue a search warrant that would be good nation-wide.

After reading the first twelve pages, it sounds like commonsense to me. I think there is an active campaign to confuse the public and make them feel they are losing their civil liberites. Confusion helps the terrorist to continue what they want to do. To distory our way of life.
68 posted on 09/10/2003 7:57:05 AM PDT by Milligan ((Hey! Who are we to protect?))
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To: Deb; ellery
Sorry, I'm afraid you'll have to link us to anything backing up your Ashcroft claim.

Ellery - I seem to recall you quoting Ashcroft speaking out against legislation similar to parts of the PATRIOT Act in his Senate days. Or am I thinking of another FReeper?

69 posted on 09/10/2003 8:18:02 AM PDT by jmc813 (Check out the FR Big Brother 4 thread! http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/943368/posts)
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To: jmc813
I think you're thinking of another FReeper -- but I too remember someone quoting that.
70 posted on 09/10/2003 9:03:49 AM PDT by ellery
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To: Sandy
"there aren't any requirements. "
Yeah, there are.

215... "`(2) An investigation conducted under this section shall-- `(A) be conducted under guidelines approved by the Attorney General under Executive Order 12333 (or a successor order); "

Executive Order 12333
"... 2.5 Attorney General Approval. The Attorney General hereby is delegated the power to approve the use for intelligence purposes, within the United States or against a United States person abroad, of any technique for which a warrant would be required if undertaken for law enforcement purposes, provided that such techniques shall not be undertaken unless the Attorney General has determined in each case that there is probable cause to believe that the technique is directed against a foreign power or an agent of a foreign power. "

The court clearly holds that FISA requires probable cause: In re: Sealed Case No. 02-001
"FISA requires probable cause to believe the target is an agent of a foreign power"
(This opinion should be read by anyone who wishes to understand FISA- obviously this author hasn't bothered to.)

Now, I'm all for rewriting the law without the reference to the E.O., but right now the law states that probable cause is required by the judge.

71 posted on 09/10/2003 10:40:53 AM PDT by mrsmith
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To: Sandy
The article's discussion of 218 is just garbage. Just garbage.

No mention that probable cause to believe the subject is an agent of a foreign power is required. The author strains to avoid that fact.

Again, see the FISA appeals court ruling I linked above.

72 posted on 09/10/2003 10:55:54 AM PDT by mrsmith
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To: Sandy
The discussion of 213 is pretty fair.

"The Patriot Act expands the use of these warrants if "immediate notification of the execution of the warrant may have an adverse result." "

This is a glaring loophole. Congress needs to be more specific.


The article is certainly an improvement over what's been written about the Patriot Act.
But there's still a ways to go.

73 posted on 09/10/2003 11:02:36 AM PDT by mrsmith
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To: mrsmith
probable cause to believe the subject is an agent of a foreign power is required.

I've always understood "probable cause" to mean specifically, probable cause to believe that the subject has done (or, I suppose, is about to do) something illegal. Is there any kind of official word on what that phrase actually means?

74 posted on 09/10/2003 11:18:58 AM PDT by inquest (We are NOT the world)
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To: MissAmericanPie
"Neither the congress or senate were presented with a full copy of the bill before being pressured to vote for it..."

I'm curious, I would like to know who came up with this claim. I looked up the US congress website and looked at the passed bills. They looked like they worked for 45 days on this Act.
Senate passed HR 3162, the USA Patriot Act on 10/25/01 incorporated with two early anti-terrorism bill HR2975 passed in the house 10/12/01 and S1510 which passed in the senate 10/11/01. Fiengold made three changes in S1510 which were approved by the senate on that same day. Provisions of HR 3004, the Financial Anti-Terrorism Act introduced 10/3/01 were incorporaated as Title III in HR3162.

Are you saying we have Congressmen and Senators who don't read anything that comes on their desk? I know they have staff and other's to assist them but it's hard to believe that our law makers wouldn't proof things before it was voted on... especially dealing with our national security.
75 posted on 09/10/2003 11:31:09 AM PDT by Milligan ((Freedom of information, look up US Congress web site.))
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To: inquest
"Probable cause" is a level of certainty- one of our legal types will probably provide a good definition of it.

When it comes to FISA, the "probable cause" is required for the belief that the target is an agent of a foreign power instead of for the belief that a crime is being committed.

From the "sealed case" link above (which has a lot on this):
"Title III allows a court to enter an ex parte order authorizing electronic surveillance if it determines on the basis of the facts submitted in the government’s application that “there is probable cause for belief that an individual is committing, has committed, or is about to commit” a specified predicate offense. 18 U.S.C. § 2518(3)(a). FISA by contrast requires a showing of probable cause that the target is a foreign power or an agent of a foreign power. 50 U.S.C. § 1805(a)(3). We have noted, however, that where a U.S. person is involved, an “agent of a foreign power” is defined in terms of criminal activity.21 Admittedly, the definition of one category of U.S.- person agents of foreign powers–that is, persons engaged in espionage and clandestine intelligence activities for a foreign power–does not necessarily require a showing of an imminent violation of criminal law."

Madison's remark at the Constitutional Convention:
"leav[e] to the Executive the power to repel sudden attacks"
shows the constitutional "reasonableness" of this standard when dealing with foreign powers IMHO.

76 posted on 09/10/2003 11:41:54 AM PDT by mrsmith
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To: Milligan
They had parts of the act, but not all of it. There was alot of complaining that the bill in it's entirity had not been presented. Don't you remember the recent passing of the package of 34 U.N. treaties regarding our resources that the Senate passed with a voice vote and claimed not to have read? Hannity on Fox News quoted the U.N.'s statement as follows: "Due to their urban sprawl and SUV's the citizens of the United States have forfited their right to control their resources, someone had to take charge."

Both houses passed NAFTA and GATT without a full study of either. I saw a reporter ask one congressman if he had read the treaty and did he realize that GATT contains language that over rules the Constitution, the congressman looked like a deer caught in the headlights and stammered that "No, he had no idea that passage was included and therefore would not vote for it". Who knows if he kept his word as these things are passed with a voice vote. I think more attention needs to be placed on this practice of theirs. Seems to me they all want to be holding the "plausible deniability" card in their vest pocket.

77 posted on 09/10/2003 11:55:25 AM PDT by MissAmericanPie
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To: MissAmericanPie
During the debate the opponents of the Act said they had two copies of it.

It just isn't true that they didn't have any copies of it ( and they must have a thousand copying machines in the House).

It hurts the argument that they didn't give it enough consideration by saying so.

They argued about the thing for 5 weeks, it's reasonable to argue that wasn't enough consideration- or to argue that the few hours available to read the final version wasn't enough- but they did have copies of the Senate's version before they voted on it.

78 posted on 09/10/2003 12:06:11 PM PDT by mrsmith
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To: mrsmith
"there aren't any requirements." Yeah, there are.

Not really though. Once the executive branch makes the proper application, the court must take it at its word as far as I can tell. The AG says there's probable cause, then that's the end of it as far as the court's concerned. The link you gave is good reading, but I think it deals with different FISA sections, not 1861/215.

79 posted on 09/10/2003 12:08:11 PM PDT by Sandy
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To: mrsmith
The article's discussion of 218 is just garbage. Just garbage. No mention that probable cause to believe the subject is an agent of a foreign power is required. The author strains to avoid that fact.

But they do say, "the target had to be 'linked to foreign espionage.' In theory, American citizens were safe unless they were suspected 'agents of a foreign power.'" That's close.

The article is certainly an improvement over what's been written about the Patriot Act.

I agree. I like the way they explain the law in a before/after format. And I think they're really trying to be objective about the thing. Parts 3 and 4 aren't out yet; I'll post them when they are.

80 posted on 09/10/2003 12:12:35 PM PDT by Sandy
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