A failed Israeli society is collapsing

The International Herald Tribune - first appeared in English in The Forward (New York), was adapted ^ | Saturday, September 6, 2003 | Avraham Burg

[ultima ratio]

By the way, Morris never denounced his earlier works as you say--which, in any case, have been amply corroborated by other sources as well. That is simply another false statement by you. He has rejected the Palestinians as objects of his sympathy, that is all--but this is something else. He has said he only believes Ben Gurion did not go far enough--not that he did not attempt to purge the new nation of indigenous Arabs. Nor can you prove what you contend--that he has renounced his own scholarship.

[KentTrappedInLiberalSeattle]

There is no record of any such Arab orders, as Israel had claimed.

LOL!!! How about as multiple contemporaneous A-R-A-B sources have publicly admitted, then; theose same contemporaneous A-R-A-B sources the existence of which you've been scuttling away from in frantic, wide-eyed terror, like Dracula from the cross?

NOT "as Israel has claimed," mind.

AS. A-R-A-B-S ARABS. HAVE. CLAIMED.

Six evasions... and counting.

Rebut... or withdraw.

You're only embarrassing yourself, at this juncture. :)

[anotherview]

My (German) family is from Tilsit, East Prussia. After 1945, the Germans were kicked out (some escaped west, most disappeared into Siberia). The cities were emptied, the street names changed, the property records destroyed. The cities re-populated with Russians.

Yep, which is why the European Union, in a rare moment of wisdom, decided on July 25th that they could NOT support "Right of Return" for the Palestinians. What was done 50 or more years ago cannot be undone.

My maternal gradfather came from a town in Germany. His family had fled the Spanish inquisition more than four centuries earlies and settled there. In 1935 he was smart enough to see where the Nazis were going and took his family to Paris. Of course, the Nazis came there too. At the time he was in the French army (he had enlisted) and managed to be turned loose before he would have been deported back to Germany and his death. He ended up in the Resistance. My mother, a small child during the war, ended up as one of the "hidden children".

In the '90s my mother went back to visit her father's birthplace. She was in the town cemetary and an older woman came up to her and asked who she was looking for. She gave my grandfather's family name. The response (in German) was: "The Juden. We have no Juden here." That response sent a chill through my mothers spine. It was all so matter-of-fact.

My mother started to leave, but then the woman asked who she was. She said she was my grandfather's daughter. The woman then asked he to come to meet her husband, who, it turned out, knew my grandfather.

Still, imagine hearing: "We have no Jews here."

I hold no malice towards you. You certainly have done no wrong to me or my family. That was another generation, another time.

The point, which you make well, is that we have to go with the realities as they exist today, not as they existed 100 or more years ago. Besides, do the Palestinians want to go back to Turkish rule? That was the reality in the time they seem to glorify.

Israel is a nation of resettled refugees, from the oppression and pogroms of Eastern Europe in the last 19th and early 20th centuries, from the Holocaust, from oppression in the old Soviet Union, from the Arab countries who couldn't tolerate Jews in their midst afther Israel was created, from civil war and genocide in Ethiopa, and so on. Should they all go back where they came from? Well... go back far enough and we all came from Israel. Israel is the home of the Jewish people.

[KentTrappedInLiberalSeattle]

By the way, Morris never denounced his earlier works as you say

Lie. From "Peace? No Chance," by Benny Morris (Gamla.org, 2/23/02):

1.) "What appears to have stayed the hands of President Hafez Assad and subsequently his son and successor, Bashar Assad, was not quibbles about a few hundred yards here or there but a basic refusal to make peace with the Jewish state."

This flatly and directly contradicts what he wrote in The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem. Grownups (and honest debaters) routinely refer to this sort of thing -- restating an earlier argument contra to your previously held position -- as refuting one's original stance. But you knew this, of course.

2.) "After Husseini came Arafat, another implacable nationalist and inveterate liar, trusted by no Arab, Israeli or American leader (though there appear to be many Europeans who are taken in)."

This flatly and directly contradicts Morris' earlier estimation of Arafat in The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee problem. Grownups (and honest debaters) routinely refer to this sort of thing -- restating an earlier argument contra to your previously held position -- as refuting one's original stance. But you knew this, of course.

3.) "The Palestinian Authority (PA) has emerged as a virtual kingdom of mendacity, where every official, from President Arafat down, spends his days lying to a succession of western journalists. The reporters routinely give the lies credence equal to or greater than what they hear from straight, or far less mendacious, Israeli officials. One day Arafat charges that the Israel Defence Forces (IDF) uses uranium-tipped shells against Palestinian civilians. The next day it's poison gas. Then, for lack of independent corroboration, the charges simply vanish - and the Palestinians go on to the next lie, again garnering headlines in western and Arab newspapers. Daily, Palestinian officials bewail Israeli "massacres" and "bombings" of Palestinian civilians - when in fact there have been no massacres and the bombings have invariably been directed at empty PA buildings."

This, of course, is in direct, screaming contradiction to Morris' own earlier conclusions, in The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem; hell, it completely cancels out the earlier work, by replacing the failed and inaccurate base assumption (i.e., "Evil Jews") with one actually grounded in verifiable history and events (i.e., Arabs Attempting To Annihilate All Jews, All the Time"). Grownups (and honest debaters) routinely refer to this sort of thing -- restating an earlier argument contra to your previously held position -- as refuting one's original stance. But you knew this, of course.

4.) "But whatever my findings, we are now 50 years on - and Israel exists. Like every people, the Jews deserve a state, and justice will not be served by throwing them into the sea. And if the refugees are allowed back, there will be godawful chaos and, in the end, no Israel."

Most shriekingly obvious of all -- and the least gainsayable by you, no matter how desperately, devoutly you (clearly) wish it otherwise: the clear and unequivocal statement that there can e no "Right of Return" is a DIRECT SELF-REFUTATION of Morris' own earlier, publicly-held position on this matter... and not all the spinning and spluttering on your part will ever change that; a fact you must endeavor to incorporate and live with, as best you (ultimately) can.

Grownups (and honest debaters) routinely refer to this sort of thing -- restating an earlier argument contra to your previously held position -- as refuting one's original stance.

But you knew this, of course.

[ultima ratio]

BBC has no record--and they have ALL THE BROADCASTS on record for that time. ALL. They monitored EVERYTHING, EVERY HOUR. Neither do the Israeli archives show any record. Neither does any other entity monitoring radio at that time. I couldn't care less about what Arab sources say. I don't know what their motives are for saying what they say. I only know there is no evidence anywhere of any such Arab broadcasts--none, zilch. Besides, the exodus was sudden, abrupt--people left without clothes or possessions, families were separated. The evidence was of mass panic--as of people fleeing from terror. It was not an orderly exodus. Not only this but western journalists on the ground interviewed survivors who spoke of massacres carried out by militias later identified as Haganah and Irgun. Count Bernadotte reported these shortly afterward to the General Assembly. Later he was assassinated by the Stern Gang.

I had said I didn't want to get into this. It's not a pleasant exchange because it churns up a lot of hostility. But facts are facts.

[ultima ratio]

Oh, come on--how does this refute Morris' own works? Of course Assad would not make peace and Arafat is a liar--I believe this also. But these characterizations don't add up to a refutation of his scholarship regarding what happened back in 1948. Scholars are continually adjusting their estimates of contemporary historical figures--so what? Such fine-tuning still can't make the lack of any actual documentation of widespread Arab orders for an exodus real. No such documentation exists. That is what is so significant. If it did exist, Israel would have produced it from its archives. The BBC would have found it in theirs. Other monitoring bodies would have also presented the evidence. But no such proof is available because it doesn't exist. The evidence is all to the contrary.

[KentTrappedInLiberalSeattle]

I couldn't care less about what Arab sources say. I don't know what their motives are for saying what they say.

In other words: "When confronted by contemporaneous Arab evidence directly demolishing my previously held anti-Semitic beliefs, based on long discredited and disproven information... I'm opting, no reasons given, for my previously held anti-Semitic beliefs, based on long discredited and disproven information." Gotcha.

"I couldn't care less about what Arab sources say." = "I have no rebuttal. The sources -- all Arab; all anti-Zionist -- say what they say; and nothing I could cocneivably post would ever change that."

" I don't know what their motives are for saying what they say." = "It's all some dire, nefarious master plan of those dastardly, demonic JEWS, I tell you! The JOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOS -- !"

Good lord, kid.

Okay. Alouette was right. I'm done with you, now. :)

[KentTrappedInLiberalSeattle]

"cocneivably" = conceivably.

[ultima ratio]

"I'm done with you now."

Good. So am I.

[A Broken Glass Republican]

May God Bless Israel. Outside of Great Britan, our greatest ally in this world.

But the settlements have got to go. There is no other way.

[A Broken Glass Republican]

Thank you for the article. I've not read all the responses but I'm positive it's getting bashed to death. Hopefully some people will listen and make changes. We'll see...

[A Broken Glass Republican]

Great comments.

The hatred these people have is only eclipsed by their wishes for armageddon to arive soon...And they feed each other.

And of course those of us who don't believe in such things are forced to suffer. After being called liberal jew hating scum and other such niceties.

Personally, I support Israel because they are one BADASS ally to have in a VERY bad part of the world. I say quadruple the finacial support we give them. But, force them to dismantle their settlements in return. And I don't care what the Bible says.

[A Broken Glass Republican]

Ahhh...But therein lies the CATCH!

If Israel was to dimantle the settlements and allow a Palestinian state to be created, they will have held-up their end of the bargan. Then if the radical muslims keep attacking, Israel declares war and whipes them off the face of the earth.

The way it is now, the Palestinians look like (And in many ways are) the oppressed.

Israel can't have it both ways like they're trying now.

[A Broken Glass Republican]

And one of the most absud things is many of these settlers REFUSE to serve in the military for religious reasons.

Amazing!! They want others to die (Including possibly me here in America via a terrorist strike) for THEIR religious beliefs.

Hypocrites.

[TexasCowboy]

Oye Vayee. Schmeer! (sp?)

LOL!

[Radix]

I apologize for my impulsive outburts. I tend to get a bit agitated when I see criticisms of the Israels who I deeply respect and support. You are correct, I do tend to post "raw" at times.

Years ago, I was in an auditorium at a public university. My resources (student fees, and taxes) were used to pay for a speech by a PLO lieutenant of one certain Yasser Arafat. I saw and heard many things that day and it is forever embedded in my memory.

After the 1972 Olympic criminal action, and the countless killings of innocent Israelis, I saw the PLO speaker defend terrorist acts with the most vile propaganda and lies that I had ever known.

More disheartening to me than that was when I saw and heard certain fellow students rise up, proclaim their jewish identity and then promptly heap praise on that murderous thug and his brethren. I could barely believe my experience that day.

Over the years I have seen more of this trend in the media, and from many others in the public realm. I have concluded that there is indeed a war against the jews going on in this world.

I, will place my support with the Jews and especially the Israelis who are holding the front line for all of us against the insane people who threaten The very existence of all. I know that that is the right thing.

Again, I apologize for my rudeness.

[dennisw]

If Israel was to dimantle the settlements and allow a Palestinian state to be created, they will have held-up their end of the bargan. Then if the radical muslims keep attacking, Israel declares war and whipes them off the face of the earth.

This plan would fail because the Europeans, the world and the UN would make Israel into a pariah state. Make huge international boycotts same as South Africa suffered. Israel is very dependent on world trade.

You fail to understand that justice and fairness are not factors here. Europeans, the world and the UN support the Paleostinans now and would support them in your scenario too, if they had their own terrorist state that Israel had to fight to defend itself

[TexasCowboy]

"The way it is now, the Palestinians look like (And in many ways are) the oppressed."

Hockey!

No tears will ever be shed for the Palis.
All of them are reserved for the mangled bodies pulled from markets and buses cause by these terrorist's bombs.
When are you and others going to see the light??!
These people are terrorists! Period!

[A Broken Glass Republican]

Hockey!

When are you and others like you going to see the light?

Not ***all*** Palis (As you put it) are terrorists. If they were, all of Israel would be ablaze in an afternoon. Period!

[TexasCowboy]

"If they were, all of Israel would be ablaze in an afternoon. Period!"

And all Palis would be dead the next.
The only reason there is not more terrorist attacks in Israel is because they know if they cross that line, Israel will wipe them out - world approval or not!