PBS columnist: IT hates Macs because 'Macs reduce IT head count'

PBS's I, Cringely, the pulpit via MacDailyNews ^ | August 15, 2003 | Robert X. Cringely

[kylaka]

Oh, I forgot one thing. I never much cared for Steve Jobs telling me (via Apple commercials) that I was too stupid to learn how to edit batch files .... and he would make life simple if I just handed over a few thousand dollars more for his Apple Computers than I could pay some guy down the block to build a PC. It seems I've heard some political parties make the same pitch, and I don't much care for them either.

[HamiltonJay]

HAHAHAHAH sorry, I've had to justify IT to those Senior Managers, and trust me, they aren't going to bite on MAC officewide.

I have nothing against mac, especially now that they are on an Unix based OS. However you aren't going to win the argument, ok, lets move to Mac's... they are 2-4 times as expensive, harder to find qualified tech support for and are proprietary in hardware and software.... Not to mention the huge existing investment in current software licensing etc.

Its a no win argument. Its a nice dream for the Mac fans, but its not reality in the business world.

[aruanan]

Any Mac users have any ideas?

Are you using the latest version of both Safari and OSX? I've enjoyed Safari but haven't used it much. I'm still using Explorer 5.2. I like the save as internet archive feature.

[stripes1776]

Cringley leaves out the history of why Windows dominates in a business setting.

• Mac hardware was proprietary and expensive. PC hardware was cheap and available from many vendors.
• There were few business applications for Macs, but many for PCs.
• OS 9 and before was a weak operating system without a command line. At least DOS had a command line, and Windows still does.

The business world standardized years ago on the PC as the desktop computer for good reasons. Things have changed now that OS X is really a Unix-type operating system. The hardware is now cheaper and there are more applications available. But those changes may have come too late to make a difference.

[HamiltonJay]

CurlyDave,

Let me explain IT to you from the management side of things... no matter how efficient it ever is, its simply viewed by management as an expense, period. Your 25 hours a year, which I find quite difficult to buy, but I'll give it to you, still will not counter the huge cost of all new equipment, trashing of existing licensing agreements, purchasing of all new software and licenses, conversion time between formats etc..

Think about it if it takes say 5 seconds to convert formats per file between PC and MAC every time you have to exchange a file with the outside world, for whatever reason, it winds up being far far more time than your few minutes a week. You gotta play apples to apples.

I have nothing against Mac, I really don't particularly now that they are on a UNIX based OS. However Mac has now, always has, and always will have the weakness of proprietary hardware, its what kept Apple from growing in the 80s and basically why IBM owns the market today. Jobs was so obsessed with control that he fought against any sort of clone or 3rd party hardware.... had Apple adopted the hardware standards (like the PC world did) it may have made roads into the business on a large scale... they didn't, they lost... Game over.

You go to your Boss and say, he 95% of the world works on this platform, but I think we should be the odd man out and use this other platform... and I don't care what that platform is, whether it is OS/Hardware or a Widget... reality is businesses don't work that way... As someone who has spent his life in software and IT I can tell you right now, I spend far more time per person with a funky file format they "NEED" to open than I ever do on an OS upgrade, regardless of the OS, whether server or desktop PC.

Every time that happens I guarantee you not only hours of the professional needing the file data are wasted, but hours of an IT person trying to help them are wasted as well... 1 format problem alone will make up 25 hours worth of cash in a heartbeat.

That's the reality of the world. I am no fan of windows, but its the business desktop standard... and as long as Mac's are charging 1500 - 2k a pop for hardware, it will stay that way. In fact as long as they keep that proprietary model, you are more likely to see something like Linux make bigger inroads into the Business desktop world than MAC. That's just reality.

[Phsstpok]

OK, most of the posts on this thread are irrelevant. "My MAC is perfect. PCs suck!" OK, let's move on.

I'm the Client Architect for a Fortune 60 company (that should help narrow it down (g)) and have been doing this for this company for 18 years and in the business of microcomputers since the "over the counter" start in 1977, so I think that qualifies me to discuss this. I am responsible for 35,000 plus Wintel PCs and around 2,000 Macs. The Macs are fine for what they can do but most of what we do has to be mainstream, off the shelf and 100% compatible with our customers or suppliers. End of argument. Macs aren't. You can build anything you need to run on a Mac, but you can't buy it off the shelf the same way you can in the PC world. We don't build, we buy. It costs too much to custom code everything we need.

Oh, and the argument that Macs never crash. Bull. And when they crash, forget it. When Macs crash it's ugly, and not reasonably recoverable. We use "disposable PCs" in our shops. We can have a PC hit by a dump truck or a meteor and have our users (that follow our rules) back up inside of a half hour. Every Mac is a custom installation and requires days to restore.

Macs require less IT staff because Macs can do less. So if you're satisfied with doing less you need less IT staff. Ipso facto. And I don't play games on my company PCs (I might surf to FR, but I can defend that... really (g))

[HAL9000]

and as long as Mac's are charging 1500 - 2k a pop for hardware, it will stay that way.

Apple sells a computer called "eMac" that starts at $795.

Although it doesn't have a flat screen like the iMac, it is an excellent desktop computer for general business use - or home use.

[HAL9000]

I am responsible for 35,000 plus Wintel PCs and around 2,000 Macs. ... You can build anything you need to run on a Mac, but you can't buy it off the shelf the same way you can in the PC world. We don't build, we buy.

Setting aside the question of which platform is better, I'm not so sure that it's always cheaper to buy software for 37,000 computers. If a piece of software costs $100, you could hire a programmer or two and save a few million.

Back on the platform issue, your claims about what the Mac can't do is short on specifics. Give us an example. Perhaps a better solution is available that you are not aware of.

[Phsstpok]

you could hire a programmer or two and save a few million.

you don't do this for a living, do you?

I can hire "a programmer or two" to do what 100s of other companies do with thousands of programmers? Doesn't add up.

Back on the platform issue, your claims about what the Mac can't do is short on specifics. Give us an example. Perhaps a better solution is available that you are not aware of.

I said explicitely that the Mac can do everything a PC can do, but I can't buy it off the shelf, the way I can for PCs. How many process control reporting systems are out there to buy for the Mac? How about ones that apply to my industry? For what you can buy for the Mac you can argue "better" till Hell freezes over. As far as available, off the shelf code, it's not even in the game.

[Swordmaker]

It's as much of a pain in the ass to use as anything anyway. I have yet to meet a serious network manager who uses a Mac in his daily work. It's Linux or some variant of Unix.

I guess you are not aware that Macintosh OS X IS Unix?

[Swordmaker]

Maybe if Apple wasn't into gouging its customers they would sell more PC's. What do you think ? It is very shortsighted of Apple to price themselves out of the market, I'm sure Bill Gates laughs at Apple everytime he looks at his net worth.

Last time I looked the street price of an Apple eMac (800Mhz, G-4, 60G, 17" flat screen monitor, 56k modem, 10/100 NIC) was approximately $794. I have seen them for as low as $699. The eMac comes with a nice software package which includes Appleworks, iTunes, iPics, iMovie, Mail, Safari, and several 3D games.

The g3 iBookwith similar software is under $1000.

The new G5 can be had for under $2000 and most columnists are comparing the G5s to $6-8000 workstations with one even complaining that Apple is mis-defining the $3000 Dual G5 as a desktop computer and not a "workstation."

People are complaining that the OS upgrade with major revisions and a host of programs are $129 (street price $99) but don't seem to complain that MicroSoft asks $179 for XP.

[Swordmaker]

Although it doesn't have a flat screen like the iMac, it is an excellent desktop computer for general business use - or home use.

Although it isn't an LCD screen like the iMac, it is, however, a 17" FLAT screen.

[Benrand]

Uh oh, a Mac geek comes out to defend his uni-button OS from the raving hordes of network people who like to make machines from parts and slap Unix-type OSes on them.

Sorry, can't make those cheap Shuttle PCs run OSX very easily...they like kernels that work with Intel cpus.

As I said, I have yet to meet a network person who will request that a Mac be used for *anything* WRT monitoring/maintaining/manipulating a large network. It doesn't matter if it is derived from Unix or whatever.

[BlazingArizona]

my other problem with mac's is you have to *cough**buy**cough* software :) which is one reason i use linux they usually have free software that works as nicely as the paid for stuff.

What you mean is that if you want software for the OS X graphic interface, you have to buy it. But why go to a Linux box to run free stuff, when you can run the same plethora of Unixware on the beautifully-integrated, full featured, works-with-all-the-devices Unix that runs under OS X? If you don't like paying $600 for Photoshop, why run the Unix eqivalent, Gimp,on a crappy Linux box when you can get Gimp for Mac's flavor of Unix and view it as it was meant to be seen?

[HamiltonJay]

Again $800 for what you can get for $500 or less, and be locked to proprietary hardware and odd man out. Sorry guys, you can love your macs, but you aren't going to see MAC make inroads in business... its not financially feasible.

They lost that war about 20 years ago, and nothing is going to change that. If anyting is going to make inroads into the desktop in business that isn't Windows its going to be something like Linux, cheap, no licensing fees, and uses standard hardware, its not going to be MAC. That's just the reality.. you don't have to like it, but thats the way it is.

Oh and if you really want to go CHEAP for a PC you can get a current generation system with OS for 300-400 or less if you know what you are doing. So even your eMac is still 2x the cost.

Mac has lost the desktop/business war, and is nowhere near any level of ever seriously challenging Wintel, for good or bad.

[Glenn]

Just expressing an opinion.

As was I.

(Very, very, primitive environment.)

You can always pay the money you are complaining about for CodeWarrior if it makes you feel better.

Good Lord, what a lot of hostility.

A just and rational response to your whining. Now, fess up: How many updates to OS X have you had to pay for?

[moehoward]

Ah the age old argument.

I use macs. Have since the old quads. My year old MDD G4 running Jag has literally never crashed.

The "no software or games" line is bull. All QUALITY games and applications eventually are ported for mac.

Like many things, you get what you pay for. As they say, "Want to work ON a computer, get a PC. Want to work WITH one, get a mac."

[HAL9000]

you don't do this for a living, do you?

I'm a software developer.

I can hire "a programmer or two" to do what 100s of other companies do with thousands of programmers? Doesn't add up.

It happens all the time. With new technologies and productivity gains, a small group can outperform the earlier work of a much larger one.

How many process control reporting systems are out there to buy for the Mac?

It's a broad field, so I don't know the exact number. The first one I found is LabView from National Instruments.

How about ones that apply to my industry?

Since you didn't indicate the industry, I'll assume that was a rhetorical question.

[bwteim]

"nor will i upgrade my 10yr old mac."

It's probably difficult to upgrade a 10 year old Anything except a hammer handle... replacing would be the better verb.

[Timesink]

Uh oh, a Mac geek comes out to defend his uni-button OS from the raving hordes of network people who like to make machines from parts and slap Unix-type OSes on them.

*looks at my three-button mouse, running on OS X with NO modifications, just plug-and-play*

*Snickers and walks away from this idiotic thread to continue using his UNIX Mac OS*