Petition to President Bush

Done.

All "honest-to-God" Christians, must pray for insight in the question of whether The Lord Most High has done a 180°.

I will say no more, -except privately- to anyone who cares to address this SPECIFIC question, and NO other, please.

Well, whatever might be discussed privately, I have no problem with pointing out publicly that I do not know God to be capricious, He tends to be quite deliberate and consistent.

If He ever "changes His mind", he usually makes sure people know good and well He has.

As for the specific question of whether or not God has revoked the deed to Israel from the Jews, I have read a great deal to confirm that this will never be the case.

They may have been scattered and carried off into slavery a few times over the centuries, but there is nothing in scripture that nullifies the legitimate claim of the Jews to the land of Israel as promised by God.

While the history of God and the people of Israel is long and turbulent, it is highly unlikely the Jews have been "disowned" or ceased being his "example".

History will determine the truth or fallacy of my statements.

Signed.

"History will determine the truth or fallacy of my statements".

Not history alone, but the action and words of the VERY PROTAGONISTS of the dramatic events in Holy Writings, plainly put this peculiar fallacy in evidence. It is "politically incorrect" evidence in some corners of our conservative camp at the moment.

With respect, and no sarcasm, I fear your first five paragraphs put a lie on your last one.

This is by NO account an attack on YOUR person, I hope you can understand this part, at least.

Thank you.

We will see.

And please don't be shy about elaborating on your points.

You've said I'm wrong, so by all means please tell me what is right, and hopefully why.

I am willing to read what you have to say, and no, I won't take offense at your saying it.

I notice that a group that is claiming fealty to God and His words doesn't have the conviction to use "swear" instead of "affirm". How politically correct of them.

"support of this embittered nation of Israel"

LOL, sure he meant "embattled", not kvetching

I hope you'll hold to your pledge not to be offended, for I believe this may be offensive to your opinions. Nobody likes to be shaken, and it's understandable. S, having apologized in advance, may I proceed?.

One of the strangest notions fostered in the last century or so, is that Jews are still God's chosen people. If the Jews are even now, after the events related in Holy Writings, God's chosen people, we Christians should all close down our churches and go join the synagogues. Any person who say that the jews are God's chosen people is by implication denying our Lord Jesus Christ and making Christianity a fraud.

According to the Holy Bible, "we Christians" are God's chosen people, not the jews. Not after the dispensation of Christ, anyway. Read Titus (KJV) 1:13-14, "This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; Not giving heed to jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." Revelation 2:9 quotes our Lord Jesus Christ as saying, "I know that works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. The First Epistle General of John, Chapter 2, verses 22-23 say: "Who is the liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is anti-christ that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: but he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also." The jews do not acknowledge Jesus Christ so they have not the Father and therefore could NOT possibly be God's chosen people. The jews are anti-christians. I never even realized this for many years until one day a friend from work -and he was and reamins a good friend indeed- told me to my face:" look I know this is gonna hurt but you Christians are really special in my mind, why, one of you even became God!" I'm not making this up.

Galatians 3:29 says, "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise." This verse from the Bible is very revealing. The jews are not Christians, that is, they are not Christ's; therefore, they are not Abraham's seed and very definitely are not heirs according to the promise that God made to Abraham. The jews are not the chosen people. Romans 9:13 quotes God as saying, "As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." Christians are of the house of Jacob which is the house of faith, whereas the jews are of the hated house of Esau, the house that God Himself hates. The jews have always hated Christians. Acts 9:22-25 says: "But Saul increased the more in strength, and confounded the jews which dwelt at Damascus, proving that this is very Christ. And after that many day were fulfilled, the jews took counsel to kill him: But their laying await was know to Saul. And they watched the gates day and night to kill him. Then the disciples took him by night, and let him down by the wall in a basket."

That Jewish people in ancient times would harbor prejudice is recorded in Acts 12:1-3 which says: "Now about that time Herod the king stretched forth his hands to vex certain of the church. And he killed James the brother of John with the sword. And because he saw it pleased the jews, he proceeded further to take Peter also. Then were the days of unleavened bread." Acts 13:50 says: "But the jews stirred up the devout and honourable women, and the chief men of the city, and raised persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and expelled them out of their coasts." Even in the 20th century, the jews use the same methods against us Christians.

Our Lord was crucified by the jews at the time of Passover. At that time, it was customary for jews throughout the known world to gather at Jerusalem for the Passover. When Jesus was carried before the Roman Governor Pontius Pilate, jews from everywhere composed the mob that gathered in front of Pilate's judgment seat. St. Matthew 26:17.25 says: "Therefore when they were gathered together, Pilate said unto them, Whom will ye that I release unto you? Barabbas, or Jesus which is called Christ? For he knew that for envy they had delivered him. When he was set down on the judgment seat, his wife sent unto him, saying, Have thou nothing to do with that just man: for I have suffered many things this day because of him. "But the chief priests and elders persuaded the multitude that they should ask Barabbas, and destroy Jesus. The Governor answered and said unto them, Whether of the twain will ye that I release unto you? They Barabbas. Pilate said unto them, What shall I do then with Jesus which is called Christ? They all say unto him, Let him be crucified. And the Governor say, Why, what evil hath he done? But they cried out the more, saying, Let him be crucified. When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it. Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and our children." That is what the Bible said about who killed Jesus Christ. The jewish mob caused a riot and tumult to force the Roman governor to allow the crucifixion of the Son of God. They raised the horrible chant to let him be crucified. The jews took the responsibility for the murder of Jesus when they said, "His blood be on us, and on our children."

1 Thessalonians 2:14-16 also say that the jews killed Jesus Christ when it says, in part, "the JEWS WHO BOTH KILLED THE LORD JESUS, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us, and they please not God, and are contrary to all men." The jews have infiltrated most churches and are now trying to get church organizations to contradict the Bible by saying that the jews had nothing to do with murdering Jesus. Regardless of the misrepresentations, one can't change the truth in the Bible which say that they in fact, killed Jesus.

St. John 5:15-18 says, "The man departed, and told the jews that it was Jesus, which had made him whole. And therefore did the jews persecute Jesus, and sougth to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day. But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. Therefore the jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the Sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God." During his entire visitation on this earth, the Lord Jesus Christ was the object of a conspiracy to murder Him and they finally succeeded, but He was victorious because he arose from the grave and ascended into Heaven. St. John 7:1 says: "After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in jewry, because the jew sougth to kill him." St. John 7:13 says: "Howbeit no man spake openly of him for fear of the jews." Some say, for two thousand years, a campaign against the Lord Christ and His followers has been waged from this camp. I'm not positive on this, but one thing is clear to me: Jews are NO LONGER God's chosen people insofar they refuse to hear the voice of Jesus. St. John 10:25-31 says, "Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed me not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe me not, because ye are _NOT_ of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, with gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one. Then the jews took up stones again to stone him." The Lord Jesus says that the jews are not his sheep and plainly tells the jews that they are NOT of his sheep, so they cannot possibly be God's chosen people. Would God's chosen people stone the Son of God? Would God's chosen people murder God's only begotten son? Of course not! St. John 11:53-57: "Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death. Jesus therefore walked no more openly among the jews; but went thence unto a country near to the wilderness, into a city called Ephraim, and there continued with his disciples. "And the jews'passover was nigh at hand: and many went out of the country up to Jerusalem before the passover, to purify themselves. Then sought they for Jesus, and spake among themselves, as they stood in the temple, What think ye, that he will not come to the feast? Now both the chief priests and the Pharisees had given a commandment, that, if any man knew where he were, he should shew it, that they might take him." Is that a friendly attitude toward Jesus Christ?. Well, what do you say?

St.John 8:44-48 reports Jesus saying: "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lust of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own; for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye belive me not. Which of you convinceth me of sin? And,if I say the truth, why do ye not belive me? He that is God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not because ye are not of God. Then answered the jews." The Lord Jesus Christ could NOT speak more clearly than that.

All this sinply means that Jewish people are just like anyone else. They must be respected and accorded all the mercy and courtesy that civil people extend to all people in good will. But when a claim is made of being "special", in spite of all the above, such claim should not be taken for granted, but taken instead with a large pinch of salt and a forgiving smile. This is all I am saying.

It's a mere call for intellectual honesty if for nothing else. And no, I fully believe that the atrocity of the Holocaust did occur, and moreover some of my best friends, and probably funniest are in fact Jewish, they can be still friends and wrong, you know.

Personally, I believe the Jews ARE still God's chosen people, and that Christians joined the Jews when we became Christians. Our Bible still has much of the Torah in it. The destinies of Christian nations and Israel are irrevocably intertwined.

I'm not about to test your theory by abandoning Israel on the off chance that no dire Biblicle prophecies will come true.

"I'm not about to test your theory by abandoning Israel on the off chance that no dire Biblicle prophecies will come true".

You see the difficulty now?.

Where did I imply that "we" should abandon Israel?. My original point was narrow: it was about the definition of "chosen" and no more than that. Political questions don't have anything to do with it, in my view.

Hysteria levels these days are such that a discussion of even remotely related issue, conducted in a sober manner soon are mis-interpreted as "flames" or provocations.

It's a sad -and ominous- fact of life.

Oh, well...enough of this craziness. I'm bored already.

Regards to all.

Psalm 118

I believe that the usa should support arm in arm the Jewish nation in the fight against arab terriorists but a string of biblical quotations does and cannot underlie an agruement for this position... with you in spirit,,,not a signer of that position

Major Bump

Show me in scripture, in scripture, in scripture that God Almighty has abandoned the Jews for Gentile Christians? Why is God making His Headquarters in Jerusalem and not Washington D.C. since the vast majority of Evangelical Christians are found in the U.S.A.? Why does he divide up the Nation of Israel into 14 sections - 12 for the TWELVE TRIBES OF ISRAEL, one for the HOLY TEMPLE, and the last for the MESSIAH? All of this will happen when the Messiah, Jesus, Yeshua Ha Mashiach, returns bodily to the Earth. And by the way He will not land in Washington D.C., or Salt Lake City Utah, or Mecca, or New Delhi. His feet will land on the Mt. of Olives, in ISRAEL! And when His feet touches down, the Mt of Olives will split in two half moving to the north, an half moving to the south, and a great valley will be created connecting the Mediterranean Sea with the Dead Sea, and water will come forth out of the Holy Temple and will heal the waters of the Dead Sea so that fish of all kinds will thrive in it.

And if you feel that this is not going to happen Literally, then please explain to me what this means symbolically or metaphorically.

Thanks for posting this! I just logged in and need to study it before commenting further, but I want you to know that I do appreciate your sharing this here publicly.

I myself am also not part of the "politically correct" majority here -- although it is reasonable to challenge the notion that anything about FR is "politcally correct" in the traditional sense.

Posting your case here is in the true spirit of the Free Republic, in my opinion, and I look forward to studying it and discussing it.

I know you are well aware that you are inviting flames for posting this, but I hope my fellow FReepers will respect the fact that you have gone out of your way not to offend, and will guard your right to speak freely here as ernestly as I will.

To my fellow FReepers: I urge you to be respectful of Psalm118's opinions, regardless whether your views agree or disagree with them.

Free speech is one of our most fundamental and important freedoms.

First off, I want to again thank you for risking flames to post this. Sharing ideas and opinions is what we're all here to do.

Before continuing, I want you to know that I also do not wish to offend you, but that in matters of religion this is often difficult or impossible, particularly where more than one religion is involved, as in this case. For the sake of brevity, I will be blunt, but I don't want you to misinterpret that as malice or anger on my part. I'm fine, really!

So here goes. The case you have made is based on a great deal of fallacy, and some outright untruths. I do not wish to attempt to address them all point by point, because that causes threads like these to balloon beyond coherence very fast. Look at where we are already, and the thread-bloating hasn't even gotten warmed up yet.

But I believe pointing out a few of the more obvious lies should be sufficient to make my point. Here is a good example of what I'm talking about:

"Christians are of the house of Jacob which is the house of faith, whereas the jews are of the hated house of Esau, the house that God Himself hates."

Wherever this slanderous notion came from, it was not from God. Jacob, after wrestling with a "man", was blessed and named "Israel" (Genesis 32:24-28). God confirmed this blessing and confirmed Israel's inheritance of the land of Abraham and Isaac (Genesis 35:10-12). The twelve sons of Jacob/Israel became the twelve tribes of Israel, which bear their names (Genesis 35:22-26). The children of Esau became the Edomites, not the Jews (Genesis 36).

Here is another:

"The jews do not acknowledge Jesus Christ so they have not the Father and therefore could NOT possibly be God's chosen people."

The relationship between God and His chosen people of Israel is the central theme of the Torah (or Old Testament, if you prefer). It is so inextricably woven throughout the text that to reject this truth is to reject the authority of the Bible itself. There are numerous direct references to the children of Israel as being the chosen people of God (Deuteronomy 7:6, Deuteronomy 14, Psalms 33:12, Psalms 89:3.4, Psalms 105:6-11, 42-45, and many many others).

Indeed, we are talking about the GOD, PEOPLE and LAND OF ISRAEL here, for crying out loud. How much clearer does this have to be?

As for the numerous references to the New Testament as a basis for usurping the status of "God's chosen people" from Israel, I hope you will understand that, as a Jew, I cannot accept unsubstantiated Christian writings as a basis for such a claim. The Muslims and quite a few cults have also built a religion based on Judaism and attempt to falsely claim that they are "God's chosen people", and even have the unmitigated gall to use the foundation of Judaism (i.e., the Jews) as the authoritative basis for the claim. Pretty insulting, really. A first-tier telemarketer could do better.

The fact is that there are almost as many such claims as there are religions to make them. The claim of the people of Israel is based on the unbreakable promise of the God of Israel. There is no greater authority (for us, at least) than that. Jesus, Mohammed and all others need not apply. We already have one God, thank you very much, and we are sticking with Him.

Will the real "chosen people" please stand up?

You have seen what the Jews have been through, as God's chosen people. Being chosen does not necessarily mean being "favored" or "special" in the commonly understood sense of the word. Indeed, God chose the Jews because we were the least of nations, and particularly given to sin and rebellion. We were chosen as an example to the world, for good or ill. A bittersweet honor, at best. We cannot hold ourselves up as "better" than other people, because our own scriptures and history prove conclusively that we are not.

But the Jews have survived nonetheless, even in the face of so much tragedy and disaster. Even to this day, millennia after God chose us, faithful Jews endeavor to keep God's laws and worship Him and no other. Although we are most assuredly imperfect, we still seek to hold up our end of the Covenant between God and Israel. God chose us to prove beyond doubt that with Him, even the most wretched of people (always with us it was sin and idolatry, idolatry and sin) can prevail.

To summarize, God gave Israel to the Jews forever. The deed has never been revoked, and anyone telling you otherwise is lying to you. Jesus did not, and could not, foreclose on the House of Israel. As for the issue of being "chosen", trust me, it's not all it's cracked up to be. A great honor? Sure. But also a great burden, and often a fatal one. Be careful what you wish for.

God speaks to the Jews, and He never lies to us, and never has. Someone is lying to you, but it is not me, and it is not God. Consider this carefully.

I have seen these sorts of claims before. I assure you, they do not originate with God, but with his enemies. I cannot recommend strongly enough that you study this question in greater depth based on the scriptures themselves (may I suggest the Torah?), pray to God on this and all matters, and go with God in all things.

Finally, regarding the original topic of this thread, the choice of whether or not to support Israel is of course yours to make, as it is with anyone. I personally don't believe it is required of you as a Christian or as an American (indeed, the Libertarian in me questions any "foreign entanglements").

I would prefer that you base such a decision on what you consider right and wrong, whether I agree with you or not. Free will is one of God's greatest gifts to man, and I would not presume to try to take that away from anyone.

Don't worry about Israel. Israel and her people are in God's hands, as we have always been. His will be done, no matter what you, I, America, the United Nations or the Arabs may decide. I know Israel is grateful for all help it receives, but as always, even when we wandered in the desert, eating manna, God will provide for us.

Thank you again for sharing this, and may God's peace be upon you.

Shalom.

My friend Imal:

Thank you for understanding, and honoring, the point I was trying to make about mutual respect in disagreements. Especially, as you correctly point out, in matters which involve "Truth of a Higher Order" than, say, sticking you head out the window to check whether it's raining or not.

This is rare indeed. Even scarcer in FR, -now there goes an understatement. I seldom post on FR for this very reason. One thing I do -DO- is lurk. I lurk to evince an indicator of sorts. But that's another story.

Also, since we left Mexifornia to retire to my birthplace, Capri, for part of the year, I have far too much to do in the actual world to spare time for the virtual one.

Nevertheless, I also want to honor your kindness in return.
I propose continuing this discussion privately at a convenient opportunity, and I mean "soon", not "much, much later" or "never again". For I love a challenge of the intellectual kind with the openminded.

If you agree, please so signify in a brief yes/no private reply.

Thanks again, and take care.

Psalm118

I always prefer public discussion, even in cases like this.

But I think on this topic we've stated our views well. I know my opinion on this matter is not likely to change anytime soon (or ever, frankly), and I am not sitting around holding my breath waiting for yours to change either.

That we have exchanged views and said our peace is more than enough for me. After all, I'm not trying to evangelize anyone here. :^)