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Ministers Who Say Judge Moore Acted Improperly Need To Tear Daniel Six Out Of Their Bibles!
Food For Thought From The Chuck Wagon ^ | Aug 29, 2003 | Chuck Baldwin

Posted on 08/28/2003 8:50:50 PM PDT by xzins

Those Ministers Who Say Judge Moore Acted Improperly Need To Tear Daniel Chapter Six Out Of Their Bibles!

By Chuck Baldwin

Food For Thought From The Chuck Wagon August 29, 2003 I have listened to minister after minister publicly rebuke Alabama Supreme Court Chief Justice Roy Moore saying, as a Christian, he should have obeyed federal judge Myron Thompson's unlawful order to remove a Ten Commandments monument from the Alabama Judicial Building. Those ministers need to reread Daniel chapter six.

Daniel was a government official in the court of King Darius. In fact, Daniel was the second-in-command answering only to the king. Yet, when Darius issued his command that everyone in the kingdom not pray to God for thirty days, Daniel openly and defiantly disobeyed.

I've heard ministers say Judge Moore was wrong not to take down the monument and wait for his appeal to the U.S. Supreme Court to be decided. However, if this logic would have prevailed in the mind and heart of Daniel, the great story of Daniel in the lion's den would not appear in Scripture. After all, Darius' order against prayer was only for thirty days. Using the logic of today's ministers, Daniel should have merely suspended his prayers for thirty days, and everything would have been all right.

Instead, Daniel immediately went home, threw open his windows, and prayed to God as he always had done. He would not postpone his convictions for even thirty days!

Like Judge Roy Moore, Daniel believed that there is a higher authority than the king. Furthermore, he believed that human governments do not have the right to interfere with religious conscience, in or out of the public square.

Also take into account that Daniel lived under a monarchy. Darius' word was the law of the land. However, Americans do not live (yet) under a monarchy. A federal judge is not king; his word is not automatically law. Under our constitutional republic, whenever a federal judge, or any other government official, rules outside his constitutional authority, his ruling must be considered unlawful and irrelevant.

When Daniel disobeyed the law of King Darius, he had only the law of moral conscience behind him. Judge Moore has, not only the law of moral conscience, but the supreme law of the land (the U.S. Constitution) behind him!

Of all people, Christian ministers should flock to Judge Moore's assistance! That they aren't proves they are either ignorant of the lawlessness of this federal judge's actions, or they do not have the courage of their convictions.

One thing is sure: those ministers who condemn Judge Roy Moore's actions should tear the story of Daniel out of their Bibles, and never teach it again. If Daniel was right, Roy Moore is right!

© Chuck Baldwin

NOTE: These commentaries are copyrighted and may be reposted or republished without charge providing the publication does not charge for subscriptions or advertising and providing the publication reposts the column intact with full credit given including Chuck's web site: www.chuckbaldwinlive.com. If the publication charges for subscriptions or advertising, the publication must contact chuck@chuckbaldwinlive.com for permission to use this column.


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Editorial; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: bible; commandments; constitution; daniel; judges; law; moore
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To: Poohbah
If you really want to have fun, point out that freedom of speech and the establishment clause appear in the same amendment - and that as the necessary and logical result of giving meaning and effect to the establishment clause, government officials don't get to use the government megaphone to proselytize as part of their set of personal free speech and freedom of religion rights.

;)

201 posted on 08/29/2003 9:36:18 PM PDT by Chancellor Palpatine (Give death the finger. Try new things, live, enjoy simple pleasures.)
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To: Chancellor Palpatine
If you really want to have fun, point out that freedom of speech and the establishment clause appear in the same amendment - and that as the necessary and logical result of giving meaning and effect to the establishment clause, government officials don't get to use the government megaphone to proselytize as part of their set of personal free speech and freedom of religion rights.

Iffy. The State of the Union Address comes to mind--it's always a political speech, and no one even thinks of saying the President doesn't have the right to use the government megaphone to advocate specific policies, legislation, et cetera.

202 posted on 08/29/2003 9:39:30 PM PDT by Poohbah (Crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women.)
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To: xzins; Chancellor Palpatine
I'm not even addressing the US Constitution. I'm referring to the Alabama constitution.

OK, then you have to toss Article VI, Section 2 of the US Constitution out.

Whoops, you can't.

It says what it says.

And what it says is unenforceable.

Since all constitutions must pass review, it is instructive that this one was not found in violation of the US Constitution.

Because the preamble is unenforceably vague. If you try to argue that it IS enforceable, and that it DOES impose a religious test for an office, at which point it violates Article VI, Section 3.

It tells us that the culture of interpreting the 1st Amendment was different in 1901.

No, it tells us that Judge Moore's reliance on the preamble as enforceable law to the point of overriding the US Constitution is defective.

203 posted on 08/29/2003 9:42:48 PM PDT by Poohbah (Crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women.)
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To: Luis Gonzalez
" That reasonable observer would also know that the Judicial Building rotunda is not a public forum, and that other groups may not place their own displays in the rotunda.

It seems that Moore has sole discretion over whatever is placed in the rotunda although he did grant requests made by two other people/groups to place two large plaques in the area as well. One depicted the bill of rights while the other was a plaque commemorating MLK Jr.

204 posted on 08/29/2003 9:47:36 PM PDT by PleaseNoMore
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To: Poohbah; Chancellor Palpatine
You have a need to win, Poobah, it's evident from your windy postings, and from your lighter-than-air tagline.

Whenever I detect thinly veiled condescension aimed at Southerners, Christianity and good ol'-fashioned morality, I always know I have encountered a Yankee whose pedigree is woefully lacking.

205 posted on 08/29/2003 9:53:27 PM PDT by O.C. - Old Cracker (When the cracker gets old, you wind up with Old Cracker. - O.C.)
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To: Poohbah
No, it tells us that Judge Moore's reliance on the preamble as enforceable law to the point of overriding the US Constitution is defective.

Nope. I disagree.

There's no way the reviewers missed the preamble. The judicial culture that review it was different than today's judicial culture. It was OK back then, and it isn't today. Things have changed.

How could they see it fine in 1901, but you think it violates Art 3 in this era?

My guess is that they considered a religious test to be a requirement that one be of a certain sect. In other words, an establishment of religion.

206 posted on 08/29/2003 9:57:59 PM PDT by xzins (In the Beginning was the Word)
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To: O.C. - Old Cracker; Chancellor Palpatine
You have a need to win, Poobah, it's evident from your windy postings, and from your lighter-than-air tagline.

Wow. Such a firm, factual rebuttal of my argument.

Moore's accomplished his goal. I fail to see why his supporters are upset.

Whenever I detect thinly veiled condescension aimed at Southerners, Christianity and good ol'-fashioned morality, I always know I have encountered a Yankee whose pedigree is woefully lacking.

I don't do "thinly veiled condescension." I am a devout Catholic who probably practices more morality than the average Southerner does.

As for condescension...the only Southerners I've known who spoke ill of anyone's "pedigree" were the product of four generations of intermarriage between first cousins, since they wouldn't DREAM of polluting their "pedigree" with the inferior blood of non-family members.

207 posted on 08/29/2003 10:03:08 PM PDT by Poohbah (Crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women.)
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To: xzins
Nope. I disagree.

There's no way the reviewers missed the preamble.

They didn't.

There is nothing wrong with the preamble. The problem is in (for the third time) Judge Moore's stated interpretation of it, which directly conflicts with Article VI of the United States Constitution. If an interpretation of an otherwise constitutional state constitution conflicts with the US Constitution, then the interpretation is wrong. If you are unable to see that, then maybe you're letting your desire to see a certain outcome (one that Moore himself apparently does not desire to see) overcome your logic.

The judicial culture that review it was different than today's judicial culture. It was OK back then, and it isn't today. Things have changed.

Wrong answer. Moore is using a bizarre interpretation that has never, ever worked--or, for that matter, ever been tried with a straight face in any courtroom of the United States.

How could they see it fine in 1901, but you think it violates Art 3 in this era?

One more time: there is nothing wrong with the Constitution of Alabama. The problem is in the specific interpretation that Judge Moore is attempting to use, which overrides the Constitution of the United States. That interpretation

My guess is that they considered a religious test to be a requirement that one be of a certain sect.

Then they would have said precisely that, not a "religious test." You're arguing that one must profess a belief in God in order to hold office or public trust in the state of Alabama.

OK, newsflash for you: Mr. Clinton's penis in Ms. Lewinsky's mouth meets the definition of "sexual relations," no matter what definition of "is" you care to employ. Likewise, requiring someone to profess a belief in God to hold office or a public trust is a "religious test."

208 posted on 08/29/2003 10:12:45 PM PDT by Poohbah (Crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women.)
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To: Poohbah
If an interpretation of an otherwise constitutional state constitution conflicts with the US Constitution, then the interpretation is wrong.

I know you didn't just say that I must arrive at the current interpretation or I'm reading the document wrong. Please tell me you didn't say that.

209 posted on 08/29/2003 10:16:57 PM PDT by xzins (In the Beginning was the Word)
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To: jwalsh07
>>"And I'm not arguing semantics, you are. You stated that court orders were in fact laws. That is a false statement."<<


Phew! I thought maybe I'd misunderstood something somewhere when Thane actually said YOU were arguing semantics!! It staggers the mind that some are not getting such a simple and basic fact!!
210 posted on 08/29/2003 10:23:23 PM PDT by viaveritasvita
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To: xzins
I know you didn't just say that I must arrive at the current interpretation or I'm reading the document wrong. Please tell me you didn't say that.

I didn't say that. If you can't read English, then I would suggest not arguing legal interpretations with me.

I said that if an interpretation of an otherwise constitutional state constitution creates a conflict with a specifc clause in the US Constitution, then the interpretation in question is not correct.

211 posted on 08/29/2003 10:23:33 PM PDT by Poohbah (Crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women.)
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To: Poohbah
You're arguing that one must profess a belief in God in order to hold office or public trust in the state of Alabama.

I'm arguing that the natural word meaning and grammar of the preamble says that "the people appeal to the Almighy God for guidance in setting up their constitution."

Therefore, any oath to SUPPORT that constitution MUST conclude that those are "just throw-away words from a bygone era" or that they must be taken seriously. If throw away words, then there is an admission that they mean something uncomfortable; If serious words, then we must deal with the uncomfortable fact that one is vowing to support the notion that there is an Almighty God.

212 posted on 08/29/2003 10:24:07 PM PDT by xzins (In the Beginning was the Word)
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To: tame
GO, TAME, GO!!!
213 posted on 08/29/2003 10:26:55 PM PDT by viaveritasvita
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To: Poohbah
If an interpretation conflicts with the USConst then the interp is not correct.

Therefore, it cannot be true that merely acknowledging Almighty God is not the same as establishing a religion.
214 posted on 08/29/2003 10:27:38 PM PDT by xzins (In the Beginning was the Word)
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To: Poohbah; Chancellor Palpatine
I had no need to rebut since that was not the purpose of my original post.

As to your Catholic piety, I do not doubt your devotion to that religion, but I would question your devotion to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Lastly, I am a transplanted Southerner and only take the online moniker of 'Cracker' to confuse. My lineage traces itself to the North, well above the Mason-Dixon, and all of my relations are still trapped in that decaying area of the country.

There may well be, as you suggest, some progeny in my family born of an incestuous relationship, but I know of none. I only brought your pedigree into question because of an obvious lack of good breeding that shines brightly throughout your postings.

215 posted on 08/29/2003 10:28:28 PM PDT by O.C. - Old Cracker (When the cracker gets old, you wind up with Old Cracker. - O.C.)
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To: xzins; Chancellor Palpatine
I'm arguing that the natural word meaning and grammar of the preamble says that "the people appeal to the Almighy God for guidance in setting up their constitution."

That part is not in dispute. Your interpretation is very far off-kilter with a specific clause of the US Constitution, and that is the problem.

Therefore, any oath to SUPPORT that constitution MUST conclude that those are "just throw-away words from a bygone era" or that they must be taken seriously.

No, it means that they're part of the preamble, which (that nasty old common law again) is not a legally enforceable portion of the document; again, this is a principle dating back to before there were Crown colonies over here.

If throw away words, then there is an admission that they mean something uncomfortable;

No, it means that they're not in an enforceable part of the document.

If serious words, then we must deal with the uncomfortable fact that one is vowing to support the notion that there is an Almighty God.

Then you're insisting that there is a religious test for holding office in the state of Alabama, and your interpretation is a DIRECT (hello!) violation of the United States Constitution, Article VI, Section 3.

One more time: if you walked into any court of law in America at any time in our history and made that argument...well, at best, you'd get laughed out of the courtroom. At worst, you would get fined, and THEN get laughed out of the courtroom.

216 posted on 08/29/2003 10:30:24 PM PDT by Poohbah (Crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women.)
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Comment #217 Removed by Moderator

To: O.C. - Old Cracker
>>"You have a need to win, Poobah, it's evident from your windy postings, and from your lighter-than-air tagline.
Whenever I detect thinly veiled condescension aimed at Southerners, Christianity and good ol'-fashioned morality, I always know I have encountered a Yankee whose pedigree is woefully lacking."<<


LOL!
218 posted on 08/29/2003 10:37:27 PM PDT by viaveritasvita (PROUD TO BE A COPPERHEAD!!!)
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To: xzins; Chancellor Palpatine
If an interpretation conflicts with the USConst then the interp is not correct.

Therefore, it cannot be true that merely acknowledging Almighty God is not the same as establishing a religion.

It's not establishing a religion...but the question here is NOT whether it's "establishing a religion." It's whether it's a "religious test."

219 posted on 08/29/2003 10:38:42 PM PDT by Poohbah (Crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women.)
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To: O.C. - Old Cracker
>>"As to your Catholic piety, I do not doubt your devotion to that religion, but I would question your devotion to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob."<<


Perfect!
220 posted on 08/29/2003 10:39:49 PM PDT by viaveritasvita (PROUD TO BE A COPPERHEAD!!!)
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