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Electronic Voting Machines discovered to be "easily hacked"...(2008 ALERT!)
Blackbox Voting ^ | FR Post 8-24-2003 | The research and activism arm of BlackBox Voting.com

Posted on 08/27/2003 5:34:38 PM PDT by vannrox



The research and activism arm of BlackBox Voting.com

  CONTENTS
Introduction
Part 1 - Can the votes be changed?
Part 2 - Can the password be bypassed?
Part 3 ? Can the audit log be altered?

*************

Introduction

According to election industry officials, electronic voting systems are absolutely secure, because they are protected by passwords and tamperproof audit logs. But the passwords can easily be bypassed, and in fact the audit logs can be altered. Worse, the votes can be changed without anyone knowing, even the County Election Supervisor who runs the election system.

The computer programs that tell electronic voting machines how to record and tally votes are allowed to be held as "trade secrets." Can citizen's groups examine them? No. The companies that make these machines insist that their mechanisms are a proprietary secret. Can citizen's groups, or even election officials, audit their accuracy? Not at all, with touch screens, and rarely, with optical scans, because most state laws mandate that optical scan paper ballots be run through the machine and then sealed into a box, never to be counted unless there is a court order. Even in recounts, the ballots are just run through the machine again. Nowadays, all we look at is the machine tally.

Therefore, when I found that Diebold Election Systems had been storing 40,000 of its files on an open web site, an obscure site, never revealed to public interest groups, but generally known among election industry insiders, and available to any hacker with a laptop, I looked at the files. Having a so-called security-conscious voting machine manufacturer store sensitive files on an unprotected public web site, allowing anonymous access, was bad enough, but when I saw what was in the files my hair turned gray. Really. It did.

The contents of these files amounted to a virtual handbook for vote-tampering: They contained diagrams of remote communications setups, passwords, encryption keys, source code, user manuals, testing protocols, and simulators, as well as files loaded with votes and voting machine software.

Diebold Elections Systems AccuVote systems use software called "GEMS," and this system is used in 37 states. The voting system works like this:

Voters vote at the precinct, running their ballot through an optical scan, or entering their vote on a touch screen.

After the polls close, poll workers transmit the votes that have been accumulated to the county office. They do this by modem.

At the county office, there is a "host computer" with a program on it called GEMS. GEMS receives the incoming votes and stores them in a vote ledger. But in the files we examined, which were created by Diebold employees and/or county officials, we learned that the Diebold program used another set of books with a copy of what is in vote ledger 1. And at the same time, it made yet a third vote ledger with another copy.

Apparently, the Elections Supervisor never sees these three sets of books. All she sees is the reports she can run: Election summary (totals, county wide) or a detail report (totals for each precinct). She has no way of knowing that her GEMS program is using multiple sets of books, because the GEMS interface draws its data from an Access database, which is hidden. And here is what is quite odd: On the programs we tested, the Election summary (totals, county wide) come from the vote ledger 2 instead of vote ledger 1, and ledger 2 can be altered so it may or may not match ledger 1.

Now, think of it like this: You want the report to add up only the actual votes. But, unbeknownst to the election supervisor, votes can be added and subtracted from vote ledger 2. Official reports come from vote ledger 2, which has been disengaged from vote ledger 1. If one asks for a detailed report for some precincts, though, the report comes from vote ledger 1. Therefore, if you keep the correct votes in vote ledger 1, a spot check of detailed precincts (even if you compare voter-verified paper ballots) will always be correct.

And what is vote ledger 3 for? For now, we are calling it the "Lord Only Knows" vote ledger.

*************

Detailed Examination Of Diebold GEMS Voting Machine Security ( Part 1)

CAN THE VOTES BE CHANGED?

Here's what we're going to do: We'll go in and run a totals report, so you can see what the Election Supervisor sees. Then we'll tamper with the votes. I'll show you that our tampering appears in Table 2, but not Table 1. Then we'll go back and run another totals report, and you'll see that it contains the tampered votes from Table 2. Remember that there are two programs: The GEMS program, which the Election Supervisor sees, and the Microsoft Access database that stores the votes, which she cannot see.

Let's run a report on the Max Cleland/Saxby Chambliss race. (This is an example, and does not contain the real data.) Here is what the Totals Report will look like in GEMS:

As it stands, Cleland is stomping Chambliss. Let's make it more exciting.

The GEMS election file contains more than one "set of books." They are hidden from the person running the GEMS program, but you can see them if you go into Microsoft Access. You might look at it like this: Suppose you have votes on paper ballots, and you pile all the paper ballots in room one. Then, you make a copy of all the ballots and put the stack of copies in room 2.

You then leave the door open to room 2, so that people can come in and out, replacing some of the votes in the stack with their own.

You could have some sort of security device that would tell you if any of the copies of votes in room 2 have been changed, but you opt not to.

Now, suppose you want to count the votes. Should you count them from room 1 (original votes)? Or should you count them from room 2, where they may or may not be the same as room 1? What Diebold chose to do in the files we examined was to count the votes from "room2." Illustration:

If an intruder opens the GEMS program in Microsoft Access, they will find that each candidate has an assigned number:

One can then go see how many votes a candidate has by visiting "room 1" which is called the CandidateCounter:

In the above example, "454" represents Max Cleland and "455" represents Saxby Chambliss. Now let's visit Room2, which has copies of Room1. You can find it in an Access table called SumCandidateCounter:

Now let's put our own votes in Room2. We'll put Chambliss ahead by a nose, by subtracting 100 from Cleland and adding 100 to Chambliss. Always add and delete the same number of votes, so the number of voters won't change.

Notice that we have only tampered with the votes in "Room 2." In Room 1, they remain the same. Room 1, after tampering with Room 2:

Now let's run a report again. Go into GEMS and run the totals report. Here's what it looks like now:

Now, the above example is for a simple race using just one precinct. If you run a detail report, you'll see that the precinct report pulls the untampered data, while the totals report pulls the tampered data. This would allow a precinct to pass a spot check.

*************

Detailed Examination Of Diebold GEMS Voting Machine Security ( Part 2)

CAN THE PASSWORD BE BYPASSED?

At least a dozen full installation versions of the GEMS program were available on the Diebold ftp site. The manual, also available on the ftp site, tells that the default password in a new installation is "GEMSUSER." Anyone who downloaded and installed GEMS can bypass the passwords in elections. In this examination, we installed GEMS, clicked "new" and made a test election, then closed it and opened the same file in Microsoft Access.

One finds where they store the passwords by clicking the "Operator" table.

Anyone can copy an encrypted password from there, go to an election database, and paste it into that.

Example: Cobb County Election file

One can overwrite the "admin" password with another, copied from another GEMS installation. It will appear encrypted; no worries, just cut and paste. In this example, we saved the old "admin" password so we could replace it later and delete the evidence that we'd been there. An intruder can grant himself administrative privileges by putting zeros in the other boxes, following the example in "admin."

How many people can gain access? A sociable election hacker can give all his friends access to the database too! In this case, they were added in a test GEMS installation and copied into the Cobb County Microsoft Access file. It encrypted each password as a different character string, however, all the passwords are the same word: "password." Password replacement can also be done directly in Access. To assess how tightly controlled the election files really are, we added 50 of our friends; so far, we haven't found a limit to how many people can be granted access to the election database.

Using this simple way to bypass password security, an intruder, or an insider, can enter GEMS programs and play with election databases to their heart's content.

*************

Detailed Examination Of Diebold GEMS Voting Machine Security ( Part 3)

CAN THE AUDIT TRAIL BE ALTERED?

Britain J. Williams, Ph.D., is the official voting machine certifier for the state of Georgia, and he sits on the committee that decides how voting machines will be tested and evaluated. Here's what he had to say about the security of Diebold voting machines, in a letter dated April 23, 2003:

"Computer System Security Features: The computer portion of the election system contains features that facilitate overall security of the election system. Primary among these features is a comprehensive set of audit data. For transactions that occur on the system, a record is made of the nature of the transaction, the time of the transaction, and the person that initiated the transaction. This record is written to the audit log. If an incident occurs on the system, this audit log allows an investigator to reconstruct the sequence of events that occurred surrounding the incident.

In addition, passwords are used to limit access to the system to authorized personnel." Since Dr. Williams listed the audit data as the primary security feature, we decided to find out how hard it is to alter the audit log.

Here is a copy of a GEMS audit report.

Note that a user by the name of "Evildoer" was added. Evildoer performed various functions, including running reports to check his vote-rigging work, but only some of his activities showed up on the audit log.

It was a simple matter to eliminate Evildoer. First, we opened the election database in Access, where we opened the audit table:

Then, we deleted all the references to Evildoer and, because we noticed that the audit log never noticed when the admin closed the GEMS program before, we tidily added an entry for that.

Access encourages those who create audit logs to use auto-numbering, so that every logged entry has an uneditable log number. Then, if one deletes audit entries, a gap in the numbering sequence will appear. However, we found that this feature was disabled, allowing us to write in our own log numbers. We were able to add and delete from the audit without leaving a trace. Going back into GEMS, we ran another audit log to see if Evildoer had been purged:

As you can see, the audit log appears pristine.

In fact, when using Access to adjust the vote tallies we found that tampering never made it to the audit log at all.

Although we interviewed election officials and also the technicians who set up the Diebold system in Georgia, and they confirmed that the GEMS system does use Microsoft Access, is designed for remote access, and does receive "data corrections" from time to time from support personnel, we have not yet had the opportunity to test the above tampering methods in the County Election Supervisor's office.

From a programming standpoint, there might be reasons to have a special vote ledger that disengages from the real one. For example, election officials might say they need to be able to alter the votes to add provisional ballots or absentee ballots. If so, this calls into question the training of these officials, which appears to be done by The Election Center, under the direction of R. Doug Lewis. If election officials are taught to deal with changes by overwriting votes, regardless of whether they do this in vote ledger 1 or vote ledger 2, this is improper.

If changing election data is required, the corrective entry must be made not by overwriting vote totals, but by making a corrective entry. When adding provisional ballots, for example, the proper procedure is to add a line item "provisional ballots," and this should be added into the original vote table (Table 1). It is never acceptable to make changes by overwriting vote totals. Data corrections should not be prohibited, but must always be done by indicating changes through a clearly marked line item that preserves each transaction.

Proper bookkeeping never allows an extra ledger that can be used to just erase the original information and add your own. And certainly, it is improper to have the official reports come from the second ledger, which may or may not have information erased or added.

But there is more evidence that these extra sets of books are illicit: If election officials were using Table 2 to add votes, for provisional ballots, or absentee voters, that would be in their GEMS program. It makes no sense, if that's what Diebold claims the extra set of books is for, to make vote corrections by sneaking in through the back door and using Access, which according to the manual is not even installed on the election official's computer.

Furthermore, if changing Table 2 was an acceptable way to adjust for provisional ballots and absentee votes, we would see the option in GEMS to print a report of both Table 1 totals and Table 2 so that we can compare them. Certainly, if that were the case, that would be in the manual along with instructions that say to compare Table 1 to Table 2, and, if there is any difference, to make sure it exactly matches the number of absentee ballots, or whatever, were added.

Using Microsoft Access was inappropriate for security reasons. Using multiple sets of books, and/or altering vote totals to include new data, is improper for accounting reasons. And, as a member of slashdot.org commented, "This is not a bug, it's a feature."

One more time....

Using Microsoft Access was inappropriate for security reasons. Using multiple sets of books, and/or altering vote totals to include new data, is improper for accounting reasons. And, as a member of slashdot.org commented, "This is not a bug, it's a feature."



TOPICS: Business/Economy; Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Extended News; Government; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections; Technical; US: California; US: Florida; US: Texas
KEYWORDS: 2000lection; 2004lection; 2012election; accutouch; accuvote; chuckhagel; clinton; computer; diebold; dnc; election; election2000; election2004; election2012; electionsystems; fraud; fraudbydesign; gems; global; hack; hart; hillery; intercivic; nebraska; sequoia; touchscreen; votefraud; votehere
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To: ken in texas
At first blush it sounds interesting... but I don't see that the investment in a lot of electronic equipment to register votes is necessary.

One of the claimed advantage of DRE machines is that they can be used by blind or otherwise disabled voters. What I'd like to see would be to use optical-scan ballots and have a means by which disabled people could use them, rather than using DRE machines.

41 posted on 08/27/2003 7:40:46 PM PDT by supercat (TAG--you're it!)
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To: ken in texas
I'm with you buddy... I like the personal touch in voting, and I don't care if it takes multiple hours to tally the votes. The audit trail is critical.

Me, too. The first thing to go electronic should be ID-checking. (which we can't do in CA)

We've been using punch cards, so I've never seen a lever-based system. Scantron-type optical ballots could be better than the punch cards, since one couldn't punch a stack of ballots with simply a nail, and since Scantrons could accommodate a large number of candidates like on our recall ballot. Also, we wouldn't have the ACLU complain about minorities not knowing where or how to vote with new-fangled technology, since elementary school children have no problem using scantron-type forms on their standardized tests.

42 posted on 08/28/2003 4:32:48 AM PDT by heleny
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To: altayann
I have to admit, I really find it difficult to believe that it actually uses MS Access to store data.

Looks to me like it is harvesting the Access data from some other database and using Access to generate reports.

Still a very bad idea.

I like Access for small, non-critical projects with three or four simultaneous users, but that's it. It is not secure, and it is definitely not stable enough for this sort of application.

43 posted on 08/28/2003 6:03:45 AM PDT by E. Pluribus Unum (Drug prohibition laws help support terrorism.)
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To: vannrox
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/917449/posts

Volunteer to your party to help your town or city check for election fraud; call your party Hq. today and offer to help. You are especially needed if you have expertise in computers – each state will have to decide on the use of electronic voting but whatever the method used, volunteer help is needed now.

Clinton and fraud are synonymous.

44 posted on 08/28/2003 8:37:10 AM PDT by yoe
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To: vannrox
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/917449/posts

Volunteer to your party to help your town or city check for election fraud; call your party Hq. today and offer to help. You are especially needed if you have expertise in computers – each state will have to decide on the use of electronic voting but whatever the method used, volunteer help is needed now.

Clinton and fraud are synonymous.

45 posted on 08/28/2003 8:37:12 AM PDT by yoe
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Comment #46 Removed by Moderator

To: vannrox
bttt for later
47 posted on 08/28/2003 9:41:35 AM PDT by boxerblues (God Bless the 101st, stay safe, stay alert and watch your backs)
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To: vannrox
This thread is more important than watergate-kudos to vannrox for posting it ....I've been following this fraud situation for some time...good to see it here....also check my thread on wally O'Dell (CEO Diebold) boasting on how he''ll deliver Ohio to the president.


Secret Meetings of the Black Box Yakuza-article by David Allen (Daves comments in{ } )

"We just didn’t want a document floating around saying the election industry is in trouble, so they decided to put together a lobbying campaign.”

- Harris Miller, ITAA

At 11:30 today, a phone conference took place with a who's who of the Black Box Voting industry. The purpose of the call was to explore hiring ITAA to lobby on behalf of the now besieged industry.

Invitations were sent out, along with an agenda (this is a PDF file, and contains my comments. Click on the note icon for my comments, the original text is unaltered).

Typical for this industry, security was non-existant and I managed to join the conference (by dialing the number and using the passcode, provided to me by a sympathetic insider who didn't attend. ) I used my own name when I introduced myself to the rest of the conference, then I sat for an hour and took notes.

Please excuse punctuation errors, I am hurrying to get this up. Also, in transcribing my notes, I am trying to keep as true to what they said as possible, including grammar and pauses.

_Notes of Conference Call between ITAA and Black Box Voting Industry_

{The meeting appears to have been set up with the help of R. Doug Lewis (The Election Center) and Hart Intercivic (a voting machine company). }

{Lewis drones on about this being a long time coming and the need for the industry to speak with one voice. }

{Let me quote from the Election Center's web site: }

{" The Election Center is a nonprofit organization dedicated to promoting, preserving, and improving democracy. Its members are government employees whose profession is to serve in voter registration and elections administration." }

{It seems to me that colluding with for profit companies and helping them hire a lobbying firm is not in the spirit of this organization's charter.}

Harris Miller (ITAA) Gives the intro spiel about the company and how it can help the industry "stave off short-term attacks" from academics and "activists".

{Apparently a meeting was held in Florida last week to discuss how to broaden the base of support for e-voting (I think the meeting was between ITAA and R. Doug Lewis). }

A question is asked about how ITAA can help the industry speak with one voice. Harris explains about helping them establish certification standards and coming to the defense of a company under attack. He then adds, jokingly (I think) "unless you want use your knives on him as well."

He also touches on the need to establish a "blue ribbon" panel which could help refute problems like Diebold is currently having.

{I assume this blue ribbon panel will fill the same role for the BBV (black box voting) industry that the Tobacco Institute filled for the tobacco industry. }

{Interesting to note that I heard not a peep from Diebold the whole call. Smart boys. }

Unknown individual (AccuPoll?) asked about whether the lobby would be addressing internet voting, which was a train wreck waiting to happen. ITAA said it was not on the agenda.

{Good! }

ITAA said that they could help get critics "on our side" but admitted that some critics are unappeasable.

{Why thank you! }

ITAA felt the industry should help create its own credebility by setting high standards.

{The highest standards in the world are meaningless if the code is secret. }

Efforts must be made to get academics "on our side".

Working with NIST (National Institute of Standards and Technology) is desirable, however, if NIST mandated an oversite committee chaired by David Dill (a respected industry critic), ITAA assumed no one would want to play.

ITAA suggested “re-engineering” the certification process to make the industry the “gold standard” so they can eliminate “side attacks you are subject to now from people who are not credible as well as people who are somewhat credible.”

{Notice they don't see such a thing as a credible critic.}

Question: Would the existing Elections Systems Task Force be reconstituted or reformatted in any way?

Answer: They have been more focused on the HAVA (Help America Vote Act) legislation but would be interested in meeting with this group. (The major companies involved are Northrop-Grumman, Lockheed-Martin, Accenture and EDS.)

{Gee, did you know that major defense contractors are involved in our elections?}

The Election Systems Task Force’s “goal was very limited. They just wanted to get the legislation HAVA enacted and to create more business opportunities for them as integrators. Their agenda was “how do we get congress to fund a move to electronic voting?”

R. Doug Lewis (Head of Election Center) suggested that ITAA draft a legal brief to address the concerns of possible anti-trust ramifications so that members of the new group would know what they could and could not do. ITAA concurred and said it would do so at the first meeting of the new group.

David (ITAA) asked for views on the memorandum.

MicroVote asked what would happen if a non-member got into trouble over some issue such as security, would the Blue Ribbon Task Force remain mute or would it turn into “a loose star chamber where you have commenting vendors commenting on another vendor’s situation?”

Harris (ITAA): Normally we would not comment on a non-members situation, it wouldn’t be appropriate. “Unless the industry came to the conclusion that it was negatively impacting the entire industry.” In which case we say we can’t comment on company “x” and we reiterate our standards and code of ethics that our coalition adheres to.

Any group who gets in trouble would hopefully join us to get out of trouble.

{This seems to provide great incentive for ITAA to rat out a "non-member" if they had dirt on them. }

Accenture (Mark) brought up the point that self-certification will be a “tough sell” to the public. We can’t win the PR battle if ITAA tries to do an ITA’s (independent testing authority) job.

“But I do think it is very important that the industry be more aggressive and more coordinated in the way that it gives input to the ITA (Independent Testing Authority) process and the people who control the ITA process. They’ve solicited that input in the past and I don’t feel the industry has done a particularly good job of providing that input. And this is something I feel this industry can be a real conduit for.”

{So, our independent testing authorities should not be allowed to be TOO independent. }

ITAA agreed that they wouldn’t be involved in an ITA-like certification process. They would help to improve the process by “bringing in people to re-engineer it. But it shouldn’t be ITAA itself doing the certification.”

{Yep, no independence for the ITA's if they can help it.}

ITAA moves that the goals and “deliverables” are agreed to.

{"Deliverables" is doublespeak for "lobbiest services". }

An objection is raised that all the goals are NOT agreed to.

Unknown: “I see no lobbying effort here and secondly I don’t think we have, as a group, set down and defined what we want before we run off and subscribe to the ITAA process.”

{The ITAA does want there money by the 29th. }

“We should sit down face-to-face before we spend $150,000 and determine what we want as a group.”

Someone felt this was a fair question, but pointed out that no one was committing to ITAA as a consequence of this meeting.

Chet from AccuPoll: “Absolutely lobbying is an essential element for this industry.”

Harris (ITAA): “We were too subtle by half. Our #4 goal, “develop liaisons with key constituencies” is a nice word for lobbying. We just didn’t want a document floating around saying the election industry is in trouble, so they decided to put together a lobbying campaign.”

{Harris then goes on to boast about his lobbying experience.}

“My background is I worked on Capitol Hill for ten years and ran a lobbying firm for ten years, before I took over here in ’95. A third of my staff has direct public policy experience working on Capitol Hill. We are the most quoted IT trade association in Washington, etc, etc. I can give you all the bona fides if you want them.

I just don’t like to put it in writing because if this thing winds up in the press somewhere, inadvertently, I don’t want the story saying the e-voting industry is in trouble and decided to hire a lobbying firm to take care of their problem for them.”

{Yeah, that would be embarrassing, especially since the voting machine industry is in trouble and has hired a lobbying firm to take care of their problem for them. }

R. Doug Lewis: “The truth of the matter is you’re not on the same side of the issues when it comes to what you would lobby for.”

“Some of you have a vested economic interest that it should get lobbied one way versus another.”

“One of the things that you ought to do is at least employ ITAA to draft a legal memorandum that says under what conditions you guys can meet together... and pay them for that... and maybe even pay them for hosting this sitdown that you want to do to figure out your interests. Then make your determinations on whether you want to go forward with a specific proposal. ”

ITAA (Harris?): You don’t even have to pay us for it... and I appreciate Doug... you are trying to look after my checkbook.

Doug: Laughter

ITAA: I’m willing to come to a meeting wherever and have a couple of staff people come down, and eat a couple of grand to do that. I won’t do a hundred page legal memo.

Unknown person: “Clearly one of the themes going around is related to collusion among industry sources, so any meeting of all the players is, by definition... unfortunately taken by some people as not a constructive exercise, but one of negative exercise. So, it would probably be best as Doug suggested, that it would be better that we pay you to do that.”

{Isn't it just like us to suspect collusion when innocent industry players get together to rig the game?}

Harris: “Okay.”

Unknown: "That way, no one would perceive you weren’t an independent body."

{As opposed to a hired gun.}

Harris: “Okay.”

Lewis: “In that regard, other than helping you get set up and acquainted with each other and willing to start this process, while we are still in the quasi-regulatory phase...although the Election Center has no judgements it can issue in any way, shape or form on this... the Election Center is going to need to bow out of this also. We’ll be glad to talk to you about any thing you want to talk about, and be a sounding board, but in terms of your organization and discussion of industry issues, we are probably best not being involved in that.... at least until we are no longer the place where we do work for NASED (National Association of State Elections Directors).”


Discussions of how the BBV task force would be governed. Decisions would not be reviewed by the ITAA board except in two circumstances:

1) It was completely opposed to something ITAA stood for. "For example if you came out and said Security is completely irrelevant to IT work. That is so fundamentally opposed to our views that it would have to go up the ladder before you could release a statement like that."

2) If there was a major division in the task force about an issue becoming ITAA policy, which rarely happens.

Emmett (Freeman?) Accenture: “In terms of the task force responding to media inquiry, does the task force handle that role, where someone becomes a spokesman for the group? If so, who does it?”

Harris: “The answer is ITAA, it usually goes out over my name, but we could add other companies if you wish. Let’s assume we wanted to respond to some attack... assume another academic came out and said something against one particular company and the task force wanted to respond. The task force would put out a statement, ‘Harris Miller, on behalf of ITAA, says this is BS’... we would also invite other members of the task force to put in comments if they want... normally the first person to put in a comment would be the chairman and other companies would have a chance to comment, blah, blah.. and be included in the press release.”

Emmett: “So, that’s the kind of protocol you have to deal with public debate.”

Harris: “Similarly, when we get press calls and the press says ‘Joe Academic says your industry’s full of crap and doesn’t know what it is doing.’ What do you say Harris? The reporters always want to know what are the companies saying?.. And there can be two scenarios there: The companies may want to hide behind me, they don’t want to say anything... frequently that happens in a trade association, you don’t want to talk about the issues as individual companies. We have that issue right now with the Buy America Act, for example in congress. No company wants to act like it’s against Buy America -- even though they’re all against it – so I take all the heat for them.

{Gee, some of ITAA's clients are going to be pissed when they read this. }

The other alternative is they say sure, my company wants to talk to them, my CEO, my PR director, whatever, I’ll send them over. Our PR people know this. We never give out the name of a company member unless we know the company wants to talk.”

Emmett: “All of that seems... like currently useful for dealing with this kind of situation we’ve seen lately. It would be a big help.”


Proposal to have another conference call next Thursday at the same time, absent ITAA, so they can discuss what the whether to hire ITAA or not.

Tracy Graham: Question about the cost on “deliverables” Was that a per member cost, or total cost?

ITAA: Total cost.

Request for how annual dues are calculated (they range from $600-$44K, depending on a company’s sales. "Deliverables" will cost up to $200,000+).

There are dues and project costs. Everyone pays dues, project costs are split amongst the members of the task force as they see fit.

Discussion of fees and what is covered. Harris explains that the fees depend on what is done. If a “Blue Ribbon” panel is needed, then fees must be allocated to compensate the panel members.

“You would have to pay for some meeting time, for these blue ribbon people, you might have to pay them a fee... a minimal fee to attend a meeting.”

Tracy Graham: “We must have a proactive strategy at this time to improve the overall perception in the industry, so we are absolutely supportive of this type of forum and action on behalf of the industry.”

Jack (Gerbel?) Unilect: “We agree as well, with what Tracy said. This is very necessary to do.”

Adjournment.

{And that, my friends, was a peek at our democracy being sold down the river.}

48 posted on 08/28/2003 5:10:35 PM PDT by angel12
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